• CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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    6 days ago

    Yes, and they should hate democracy. How do you not understand that democracy is bad? See lynch mob example.

    • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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      6 days ago

      Yes, and they should hate democracy. How do you not understand that democracy is bad? See lynch mob example

      What I hate instead is the neofascist movement that is trying to capture America and implement a vast enshitification program. How do you not understand that neofascism is bad? See example of many millions killed and tortured in huge enshitification program in 1930’s Germany leading to global war killing tens of millions.

      • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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        6 days ago

        And in comes the tin foil hat guy! Sure dude, that is exactly what the conversation is about!

        • eskimofry@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago

          Ok dude who says democracy is bad calls somebody else a tin foil hat guy.

          You should reflect on yourself first.

        • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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          6 days ago

          Sure dude, that is exactly what the conversation is about!

          It sure is. The fascist takeover of Germany and terrifying consequences is real and your “lynch mob” example making democracy the “worst form of government” is not real. Lynch mobs have never been legal in democracies. But they are common in just about every authoritarian country.

            • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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              5 days ago

              What’s utterly crazy is you trying to tell people that Treason Trump’s neofascist movement would be better at protecting minority rights than our longstanding core values of democracy and the rule of law.

              • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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                5 days ago

                I agree that suggesting Trump is silly, but America’s “core value of democracy” is excessively hollow, and largely for show. In reality, wealthy Capitalists have always been served by the state and remain in power since America’s conception, this has never been untrue in America.

                  • eskimofry@lemmy.world
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                    2 days ago

                    I agreed with you on democracy… but you’re wrong on this one. America became successful by being power brokers across the world. Not democracy. How does democracy in America going to strike an oil deal with Saudi Arabia in the middle east? Its U.S imperialism that made America powerful.

                  • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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                    5 days ago

                    Successful by what metric? Settler-colonialism and genocide? Sure, given that America was founded by Slave Owners that makes sense. Successful in terms of global Imperialism? Sure, given that America’s Capitalists have enjoyed cheap labor abroad through couping countries that denied them access to their natural resources and labor, that makes sense too.

                    Successful in terms of representing the general public? No, not even close.

    • Ledivin@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      Using the most extreme example of a political system as a bad example is just plain fucking stupid. What system do you propose? I’m positive that I can find an example of that being a nightmare with virtually no effort.

      • NegativeInf@lemmy.world
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        6 days ago

        They want a Republic™. Which is just a thin veneer over a pseudo religious fascist oligarchy! Like fucking Russia.

        Anyone who wants to take away your right to self determination is a lunatic.

        And this is just crazy because we don’t live in a democracy. We don’t live in a republic. We live in a democratic republic. Where we each get a say in who’s elected. And anyone saying otherwise wants to see our nation fall to fascist rule.

      • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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        6 days ago

        How about a constitutional republic?

        And looking at the worst case scenerio of a political system is exactly what you should do

        • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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          6 days ago

          How about a constitutional republic?

          North Korea is a constitutional republic. And Iran. And China. And Russia. And Nazi Germany was. That means nothing. It’s just another GOP dog whistle.

            • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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              6 days ago

              Yes they are so. Anybody who thinks the Shah is in power in Iran, the Tsar rules Russia, the Emperor still rules China, and the Kaiser still runs Germany, is not paying attention to current events.

        • Ledivin@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago

          And looking at the worst case scenerio of a political system is exactly what you should do

          That’s a strawman version of my words and you know it. A lynch mob is not actually a valid example of a democracy without simplifying literally every part of it, in the same way that a death cult shouldn’t be considered a valid simplification of communism.

          • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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            6 days ago

            A lynch mob is an exaggerated example but it is a perfect analogy. Its more like “democracy is when minorities are legally discriminated against and abused.”

        • puppy@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago
          1. Who writes the constitution?
          2. How do we know the constitution is good?
          3. What do we do if the constitution is bad?
          • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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            6 days ago

            Sure a constitution could be bad, but its the best political document that can last the longest period of time. You could make a constitution that is bad but then the smaller units of the government should not agree.

            • P1r4nha@feddit.de
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              6 days ago

              The US has a constitution that is bad (slavery is legal). That’s also why it was amended many times. Via a democratic process by the way.

              Other democraties also have constitutions which they amend and revise regularly to expand rights and guide legislation.

              • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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                5 days ago

                I love it, you dont even know why slavery was not prohibited in the constitution. Before you comment you should learn basic history.

                • P1r4nha@feddit.de
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                  5 days ago

                  You don’t even know the difference between a republic and a democracy. Why do you think you know anything better?

            • puppy@lemmy.world
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              6 days ago

              I didn’t ask a hypothetical question. Do you have the answer for those 3 questions?

              • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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                5 days ago

                Those questions are too open ended to answer. If we narrow it down to america then;

                1. Smart respected people that have studied history and politics.

                2. You cant know for sure, but it is the best system possible for what is available.

                3. It can go bad, and if it does then you need to change it, which the ability to do that helps to make it a good constitution.

                • puppy@lemmy.world
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                  5 days ago

                  You gave me non answers.

                  1. Yes we need smart people everywhere not just in politics. Be it doctors, accountants, engineers, clerks, elctricians and everywhere else. So when it comes writing the constitution, how do you select these smart people?
                  2. So your answer is you don’t know you’d just accept and believe what the “smart people” tell you?
                  3. So who changes the constitution? Same smart people who wrote the bad constitution? Do you need a new set of smart people? If so how do you select these new people?

                  Have you given any serious thought to what you’re advocatong for?

                  • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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                    5 days ago

                    You are asking me to write a book long response in a post. I am just advocating for what america had before the system got looted.

    • UltraGiGaGigantic@lemm.ee
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      4 days ago

      Switzerland has a direct democracy component to their government.

      The pure form of direct democracy exists only in the Swiss cantons of Appenzell Innerrhoden and Glarus.[27] The Swiss Confederation is a semi-direct democracy (representative democracy with strong instruments of direct democracy).[27] The nature of direct democracy in Switzerland is fundamentally complemented by its federal governmental structures (in German also called the Subsidiaritätsprinzip).[5][6][7][8]

      Most western countries have representative systems.[27] Switzerland is a rare example of a country with instruments of direct democracy (at the levels of the municipalities, cantons, and federal state). Citizens have more power than in a representative democracy. On any political level citizens can propose changes to the constitution (popular initiative) or ask for an optional referendum to be held on any law voted by the federal, cantonal parliament and/or municipal legislative body.[28]

      The list for mandatory or optional referendums on each political level are generally much longer in Switzerland than in any other country; for example, any amendment to the constitution must automatically be voted on by the Swiss electorate and cantons, on cantonal/communal levels often any financial decision of a certain substantial amount decreed by legislative and/or executive bodies as well.[28]

      Swiss citizens vote regularly on any kind of issue on every political level, such as financial approvals of a schoolhouse or the building of a new street, or the change of the policy regarding sexual work, or on constitutional changes, or on the foreign policy of Switzerland, four times a year.[29] Between January 1995 and June 2005, Swiss citizens voted 31 times, on 103 federal questions besides many more cantonal and municipal questions.[30] During the same period, French citizens participated in only two referendums.[27]

      In Switzerland, simple majorities are sufficient at the municipal and cantonal level, at the federal level double majorities are required on constitutional issues.[20]

      A double majority requires approval by a majority of individuals voting, and also by a majority of cantons. Thus, in Switzerland, a citizen-proposed amendment to the federal constitution (i.e. popular initiative) cannot be passed at the federal level if a majority of the people approve but a majority of the cantons disapprove.[20] For referendums or propositions in general terms (like the principle of a general revision of the Constitution), a majority of those voting is sufficient (Swiss Constitution, 2005).

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy#Switzerland

      • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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        4 days ago

        The US has direct democracies in many ways also, but there are overall protections from the constitution.

    • tabarnaski@sh.itjust.works
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      6 days ago

      Nobody ever said a democracy is the perfect system, but it’s better than non democratic forms of government.

      What do you think would be a good system?

      • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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        6 days ago

        Democracy is a terrible system, as teh saying goes “democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what is for dinner.”

        • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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          6 days ago

          The most famous saying about democracy actually goes likes this…

          Churchill: Many forms of Gov­ern­ment have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pre­tends that democ­ra­cy is per­fect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time.…

            • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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              5 days ago

              You miss King George III and your hatred of American values just caused you to wildly swing from republic to monarchy. Got it.

              See above quote.

              The quote from a British prime minister that says monarchy is worse than democracy?

              • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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                5 days ago

                Sure you can have bad monarchies, but its much more likely you will have bad pure democracies.

                • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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                  5 days ago

                  You will want to gtfo and move to Saudi Arabia then. Hope you’re not female.

      • bjmllr@lemm.ee
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        6 days ago

        i mean, the USA is a constitutional republic, so this dweeb isn’t even being a tankie, they just have terminal facebook boomer meme brain

      • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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        6 days ago

        CableMonster is a conservative, not a “tankie.” “Tankies” want democracy, usually a different form like Soviet Democracy, they don’t rattle on about Constitutional Republics or anything.

        • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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          5 days ago

          I want a democracy where normal people are the demos getting represented, rather than rich shitheads, their kids, and their family business killing the planet.

          It’s called a dictatorship of the proletariat when the wealthy minority do not be getting to enforce their will on the majority.

          • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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            5 days ago

            Yep, we currently have the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie, not a truly democratic system by any stretch.

          • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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            5 days ago

            It’s called a dictatorship of the proletariat when the wealthy minority do not be getting to enforce their will on the majority.

            It’s just a personal dictatorship of one man. Stalin had arrest quotas so his men rounded up people at random at train stations and markets to fulfil his quota. Sucked for the proletariat just trying to buy bread or visit grandma.

            • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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              5 days ago

              According to declassified documents from the CIA itself:

              Even in Stalin’s time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist power structure.

              Stalin, although holding wide powers, was merely the captain of a team and it seems obvious that Khrushchev will be the new captain. However it does not appear that any of the present leaders will rise to the stature of Lenin and Stalin, so that it will be safer to assume that developments in Moscow will be along the lines of what is called collective leadership, unless Western policies force the soviets to streamline their power organization.

              It is hard to draw any parallel between present events and those of the 1920’s when stalin was ascending to power. There is now no organized opposition iniside the Party, or in the Soviet Union in general. As the Communist rulers and evidently also the Soviet people see it, there is a grave outside menace.

              Dictatorship does not mean autocracy. The point of a dictatorship of a proletariat is that unlike what we have now (a dictatorship of the bourgeoise) is that it’s reflecting the will of the majority of working people over the wants of our aristocracy.

      • btaf45@lemmy.worldOP
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        6 days ago

        I think this guy is a actually a bootlicker rather than a tankie. Ironic how they sound the same.

      • CableMonster@lemmy.ml
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        6 days ago

        Yeah I dont get it, I want you to do what you want and me to do what I want, and figure out a way to work together. They just want to tell us what to do, crazy when it ends in disaster.