ik that Biden isn’t re-running, but Kamala is basically the same from the macro pov
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Anyone who explicitly decides against voting for Harris/Walz implicitly decides that they’re fine with Trump.
And anyone who explicitly decides voting for Harris/Walz explicitly decides they are fine with genocide irrespective of Trump.
If Trump promised to end the Palestinian Genocide, but all other points of his agenda (labor protections, lgbt rights etc.) were the same, would you vote for Trump instead? Would you fuck over every other bit of progress for that one issue?
In a fantasy world where he would actually do it, yes? So you’re saying you are okay with max libertarianism in your own county even if that means ethnically cleansing an innocent population in another? That’s a very backwards understanding of liberty and human rights.
Also saying “that one issue” when we’re talking about a literal genocide is super rich. Would you have said the same thing about the Holocaust? “I know this Hitler guy really hates minorities but look at how much he loves doggos and what amazing things he’s doing for the German economy!”
If the Overton Window can be yanked back to the left and the Christofascists left behind
You see voting for a party that has vowed unwavering support for an oppressor to exterminate a native population as a move to the left? You’d rather vote for Librofascists than Christofascists and that’s your choice - I’d rather not vote for fascists at all.
Just don’t blame voters that draw a hard line at genocide if the Dems lose, rather ask why they are willing to throw an election by not taking a hard stance against the literal worst crime against humanity.
The high horse you’ve chosen to mount will get us more genocide and a whole host of new issues for queer people and people of color. Nobody will be giving you moral brownie points for allowing that to happen.
Is your moral grandstanding worth the lives it’ll cost?
Is your relative safety worth the lives of thousands of Palestinians? You seem to think so. But always remember - “pragmatic” support for the “lesser evil” isn’t going to result in less genocide - it just teaches them exactly how many atrocities you’re willing to accept.
When you tell politicians they can bomb any country, support any ethnic cleansing, and expand any war while still getting your vote as long as they wave a rainbow flag - you’re not preventing fascism, you’re just giving it a differently colored stamp of approval.
The fact that you think “moral brownie points” are even part of the discussion only shows you view the lives of people as nothing more than a political tool.
And look, if your moral framework tells you to vote blue - vote blue - but don’t let that be the end of it - go out and risk losing your freedom before there’s no-one left to risk theirs to save yours.
I’m not just talking about our safety, I’m talking about the lives of Palestinians.
Nobody on the left likes FPTP or anything else about our voting system, and we all know it’s bullshit, but this is what we have to work with. The moral brownie points you seem to be after won’t be found by crossing your arms and allowing Republicans to pour gasoline on the fire, and no amount of Democrats doing the same will outweigh the political BS that influenced the party to fund a genocide in the first place.
Is your moral grandstanding worth risking more lives in Palestine (in addition to all of the issues it’ll introduce for our own marginalized citizens)?
Which of the two choices in the US presidential election aren’t supporting a genocide?
Does your not voting for Harris end the genocide?
Which of the two choices in the US presidential election aren’t supporting a genocide?
This is my take. The U.S. government has already decided that it is going to support genocide. This topic is not up for a vote in 2024, the American public (i.e. voters) do not have the option of voting “no genocide please.”
We really need some reform to our election system, because when the 2 parties both decide they want something we are railroaded. We need to get rid of the Electoral College and have ranked-choice or some other form of voting that makes 3rd party candidates viable.
If you don’t like Trump then you should be begging Harris to act like she wants to get elected. Chastising voters because they don’t like your candidate is only going to make them dig in their heels.
And anyone who explicitly decides voting for Harris/Walz explicitly decides they are fine with genocide irrespective of Trump.
No. They decide that they prioritise the other issues over a vapid gesture of protest.
For direct democratic votes, you directly vote on a specific issue. But in a representative democracy, you vote for the candidate best representing your preferred policies. If there is no candidate that ticks all your boxes, you prioritise and decide on a tradeoff.
That tradeoff takes into account the strategic realities of the voting system. If I have to choose between “Genocide”, “Genocide, but worse” and “I’ll let the rest decide”, abstaining or voting 3rd party is no noble gesture, it’s complacency.
In a fantasy world where he would actually do it, yes?
You’d let an out and open fascist take the reigns, if he’d stop one particular genocide?
So you’re saying you are okay with max libertarianism in your own county even if that means ethnically cleansing an innocent population in another?
So much wrong with this sentence. First, no, I’m not a libertarian. If you mean liberty, check your translator. Second, we’re very far away from “max liberty”. Third, that’s a false equivalency: To refuse one extreme doesn’t equal embracing the opposite. There is a lot of space between them.
Fourth, if it’s about the defense of civil rights, I need to look to my own freedom first. I can’t help anyone else when I’m chained down myself. Particular if I can’t help the others this way anyway, it’s a lot smarter to prioritise things I can actually change than try to set a sign and hope it stays up long enough to matter.
Also saying “that one issue” when we’re talking about a literal genocide is super rich. Would you have said the same thing about the Holocaust? “I know this Hitler guy really hates minorities but look at how much he loves doggos and what amazing things he’s doing for the German economy!”
Brilliant! Your example for “that one issue” is the exact guy Trump would love to buddy uo with! The exact guy whom I hate with a passion because of so many issues, not just one. Would Hitler have been a good person if he hadn’t killed the Jews (just enslaved them, deported the gypsies and generally still been an all around racist cunt)?
You see voting for a party that has vowed unwavering support for an oppressor to exterminate a native population as a move to the left?
That says a lot about where the window is, yes. Because both major parties fit that description, except one of them is even worse. Hence, the less bad one is a left, relative to contemporary political center.
You’d rather vote for Librofascists than Christofascists and that’s your choice - I’d rather not vote for fascists at all.
So you’d rather have the rest of the people decide? You don’t care about gay rights or all that shit, you have no horse in that race, doesn’t matter to you whether the winner starts rounding up political enemies (you know, lefties like you and me)?
Because I fucking care. And I’m not going to throw a tantrum and quit the field because one issue I care about isn’t even on the board.
Just don’t blame voters that draw a hard line at genocide if the Dems lose, rather ask why they are willing to throw an election by not taking a hard stance against the literal worst crime against humanity.
I don’t understand why people are so sure that a hard pro-Palestine stance would help them. It would make them the prime target of propaganda designed to alienate the superficial moderates. It would make them a clear enemy of the AIPAC and other pro-Israel PACs that together hold a non-negligible amount of sway. I don’t think that the voters they’d gain by that outnumber the white moderates that hear “They’re antisemitic moslems” and believe it.
If you believe that using the ballot to protest an issue not being on the agenda is more important than the other issues that are on the agenda, you’re very narrow-minded.
The first mistake was bartering with moderates - if a person is willing to compromise on genocide - what would they not be willing to compromise on?
MLK said it 60 years ago and it’s still true today: “…that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season’"
But keep waiting and hoping that next cycle the window wouldn’t have moved further to the right
This election isn’t the only measure to take, and it requires no waiting. You can still protest and riot and everything else - none of that conflicts with also voting. It’s not either or.
What MLK complains about are the people that only vote to stall and never do. I’m pretty sure he’d have been in favour of voting and taking action.
What else do you propose? What do you think would be the strategic choice?
I don’t know what to think about people claiming to be LGBT+ allies who would even remotely entertain not voting Harris… as the risk to the people they say they want to protect is domestic as well. This is a palestinians lose or everyone lose waaaayyyyy worse kinda deal … so yeah… apparently ideals don’t matter that much.
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I’m literally queer both in terms of sexuality and gender 💀💀 and am against genocide precisely bc of my principles (though I don’t live in the US)
bc choosing to support the “lesser of two evils” since they won’t target you domestically is lacking any and all backbone. “The dems can have a little genocide, as a treat. After all, they protect minorities in the ‘civilised west’ and that is the only place that counts” (not putting words in your mouth, just that this is what the position essentially boils down to)
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Why are all your arguments “if you don’t do X you’re doing Y”?
Has the two-party system defeated you so much that you can’t see anything but binary choices? It’s been decades of being forced to choose between two bad choices and you’ve been choosing a bad option every time, on the promise of a better one next election. But you’re never going to get an alternative if you just keep voting for the lesser of two evils every 4 years.
And I hope the Putin comment is just that and not a xenophobic dogwhistle because their name is in Cyrillic…
I’m sorry but if you believe you can only be gay if brown people get genocided you’re not gay and you just want to kill children.
If someone is willing to genocide anyone, then they’ll come for you eventually too. Nazis didn’t start their genocide with Jews.
Does not voting for Harris end the genocide?
No, the right wing pro Zionist, “there are no red lines for Israel,” candidate will not help to end the genocide randomly reversing course on her entire campaign.
Stick your strawman. Brown people dying is not a precondition… I did not imply that at all. It’s that more people will suffer and die if trump is not defeated. It’s like saying Hitlers opponent was also bad… yeah maybe… but he’s not advocating fascism.
Genocide and support for genocide is fascism. Harris is advocating for fascism.
If they’re willing to fully fund the elimination of Palestinians, they wont stop when they are gone. You might not be next on the list, but you’re on the list, we all are under a genocidal government.
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No one is saying how dare you vote for trump to people voicing concerns. People are saying that to individuals willingly not voting, voting for trump in “protest,” or voting third party in “protest”
There’s no protest, though. Third parties are the only logical option for anyone with any amount of humanity left in them. Only fascists would vote for genocide, only selfish fascists would vote for genocide on the thought that if they don’t they’ll get genocided as punishment.
Sure broski, vote third party, help trump. Other elections I don’t care, but this one has a literal nazi running and a lady who is criticized for not doing enough to stop Israel. So naturally help the nazi
You people have said this exact nonsense since Reagan.
It’s always the next election that you might get to vote for something, instead of against something.
No, child, I’m not voting for genocide. Your idealized fantasy land you call a world view isn’t valid. There are no good people in either the democratic or Republican parties. They are all literally genocidal fascists. No exaggeration. They are actively commiting genocide.
Your vote for either of those parties is to normalize and consent to that genocide as well as any other that doesn’t affect you. That is quite literally, again not exaggerating, a Nazi belief. That genocide needs to happen, because otherwise you’ll be a victim of genocide. That is literally the line used by the Nazis to justify killing the Jews before the Jews kill them.
Now if I’m wrong and vote third party and that third party wins, I have not voted for genocide and we at least entirely withdraw from the middle east.
If that third party does not win or I’m not wrong and they do win, genocide happens that I have stated my explicit disapproval of, I continue to join protests, work in my mutual aid group, and work to make the world better against the government who wanrs to make it worse until im i evitably killed by either the trump or harris governments.
If trump wins, the safety of people in my family and of my friends is in danger. I have come to this conclusion by what he and his associates have actually said and written. Not some random scare tactic. This is not a moral handwringing. They are going to harm my folks right here, as they have gleefully said.
Do we like ‘lesser evil?’ No. But I have unfortunately not been wrong about these horrible people since I began researching the alt right trend in 2014. Making sure they don’t have power again is far more important than a protest vote.
The likelihood you’d get killed by a Harris government is by FAR less than with a Trump govt, and if you don’t see that you are fearfully delusional, and I am not saying that as a personal attack, but as a genuine concern.
So we are clear, I am against this farce of a war in the mid-east, against the surveillance state we are building, for ranked choice voting, strongly for healthcare for all, for housing first, and am a part of the local mutual aid groups.
And Reagan really started this slide, so not terribly useful to call that crying wolf.
literally the meme rn 💀
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I’m part of the lgbtq community, and have been longer than you’ve likely been alive. I’ve lived through worse things than your fear mongering can come up with. my existence is not worth the genocide of others, and we know from history those that commit genocide do not stop with their original target.
Democrats, having thoroughly and completely endorsed genocide, who have sent troops to aide in genocide, who have bombed civilian populations in dissenting countries in defense of genocide are not going to stop when Palestinians are a historical group only.
Voting for them with the vague thought that they might spare you is stupid at best, suicide at worst.
Trump said he will support Israel as well wich is probably his only based take.
Trump’s a Nazi, so supporting a genocidal ethnostate is perfectly ideologically consistent for him.
I think ethnostates are bad though, and only a dipshit or a monster would support them.
leaving this up for everyone to see. person is ofc permabanned
