Hi!

I’m just curious if there are any Europeans here that are pro gun. As a European myself I know it’s super rare and those who are are probably not going to admit it publicly because guns are very, very stigmatized here. The exception might be the Czech Republic since they actually do have concealed carry licenses.

I haven’t always been pro gun, I have just like every other cheep in Europe I thought they were nothing but bad. But after years of watching guntubers and hearing 2a advocates arguments and seeing how the anti-gun crowds arguments are based on complete ignorance (they often can’t even get the basic facts right), I’ve completely changed my mind over the last maybe 5-6 years. The increase of gun violence in Europe and in my own country in particular, like seeing criminals post videos when they fire their fully automatic AKs in the air out the window of a moving car and the rise of gun violence in general. I realized that gun bans don’t work, and the only way to make sure you never get victimized by one of those criminals is to be able to use a gun in self-defense.

I know there are mostly Americans here, and I watch the gun debate over there and how the elite is trying to infringe on your rights. Make sure you fight that every single day. Because us over here have nothing to defend ourselves with if/when something happens. All we can do is hope the offender is not a complete psycho and will not kill us if we just comply.

Any Europeans wanna share their own journey from anti-gun to pro-gun?

  • waxwo1j0e@exploding-heads.com
    2·
    1 year ago

    If pro-gun is defined as gun availibility to everyone, I don’t support it in general. All the unstable people would have gun access and I believe that would lead to more violence, more bad than good. Different countries and even areas have different laws and assumptions on guns. Speaking of my part of the Europe, it’s better to keep guns only for officials, hunters and gun club shooters.

    That said your place sounds worrying if there’s gangs with full-auto guns. Luckily for me the local criminals have some illegal guns, but they rarely if ever use them and even then it’s usually in a fight between criminals or people associated with them. Gun related crimes get better investigation and higher punishments, it’s just not worth it for our criminals. Guns are more of a thing for new gangs who try to look cool or intimidating, not individuals. The more stupid, the more likely they are to use a gun.

    I would surely be cautious if everyone could get guns cheap and with almost no restrictions, I know too many people I wouldn’t trust with a kitchen knife. They need protection too, but from themselves and other people like them.

    I could support unrestricted gun ownership in different situations. Wartime, when there’s martial law or when the officials can’t maintain sufficient order. If someone here gets threatened with a gun they can usually blame themselves for getting into that situation. Except when it’s the new type of gangs who are all about trying to look tough. They are crazy and stupid, but in the most pathetic sense. They should be eradicated in ways that they will not form again.

    I’ve been interested in solo hunting which would mean owning at least a rifle or a shotgun. There’s mostly no stigma about guns here unless it’s people who’s only viewpoint about guns is the media, movies, games. Many people have some contact to people who hunt etc. There’s no American style self-defence or my rights ideas here. Guns are just guns, used by the law and military, tool for a hunter, hobby item for people who value guns for their beauty, history and mechanics or who just like to shoot good at track.

    I support gun control, but to what degree is that anyone, who actually needs one and is fit (crime history, mental evaluation) under somewhat relaxed rules should be able to own a gun. Solely for self-defence could be allowed, maybe based on profession or other real threats. No guns for people with certain crimes committed, or likely danger of harming themselves or the public.

    Absolutely no guns for people who want to look tough with guns. It just breeds wrong mentality and bad image about guns and gun owners.

    Gun types matter too, I don’t think any proper guy owner needs full-auto in self-defense situation. It could scare some attackers off, but semi-auto or single shot is well suited when one has to defend themselves. Fully automatic is just more likely to cause secondary unnecessary damage. And threat to outsiders, especially in public shootings.

    • Calculate2093@exploding-heads.comOP
      2·
      1 year ago

      I mostly agree here. I don’t think we should just let everyone and their mother own a gun. I think we can model the whole EU after the Czech Model. Where it does require a license and getting that license requires a clean criminal record and health (including mental) evaluation and also require proper training. At the same time I do support 2a advocates in the US, citizens should never give up their rights to the gov, no matter what. And that’s just a matter of principle for me. But there’s also a downside with it that I do recognize, if i lived over that I would never advocate for gun control.

      I think we can trust most of our fellow citizens with guns just like we trust most of them with cars, baseball bats, bow and arrows, swords and knives. Most people are responsible people.

      I do not agree that there should have to be an immediate threat towards you or just for certain occupations though, I think every law abiding mentally fit person should be able to carry tools to help them survive if “shit goes down”, because you can never know when that happens. There are multiple examples from just my own country where innocent people end up in the cross fire between gangs too, some have died, some has been wounded, I do not think they can blame themselves.

      Gun types matter too, I don’t think any proper guy owner needs full-auto in self-defense situation. It could scare some attackers off, but semi-auto or single shot is well suited when one has to defend themselves.

      I never advocated for full-auto either, full auto is pretty useless when you want to hit your shots accurately full auto is meant for suppressive fire in wars, so yeah, semi-auto is enough, single shot is often not enough though, but hey, that would of course be up to the individual what they would think was enough for them.

      Thanks for your response btw.

      • waxwo1j0e@exploding-heads.com
        1·
        1 year ago

        Thanks for a well thought answer. Czech model sounds good, as gun control is a compromise between rights and dangers.

        US is a whole different story. They have their admirable ideals and rights, like many other nationalities. When it comes to guns, I see very little common between Europe as a whole or even individual countries. Their history and current situation with criminal rates and every criminal who can afford or steal having some kind of firearm is problematic. Even without the national values, people really need guns there a lot more on self-defence basis than in Europe in general.

        I can get a gun easily, legal with some requirements. And I don’t see a reason to limit guns more. Situations and such my opinion may vary between places, where more guns is good, somewhere not so. Gun laws attempt to control that balance where guns end up in good hands, rather than bad. Czech model sounds reasonably good at that.

        I don’t fully agree on your opinion about having guns without real current threat or other good reason. Mainly because too many of those guns would end up in bad hands and influece more illegal gun use. Police seizing guns would have zero effect on illegal gun availibility and illegal uses of guns when legal guns would be so commonplace. Legal guns would get stolen or loaned for criminal use to replace seized ones.

        I see benefits too if more people had guns. Those guns in hands of good common folk, using their gun for themselves and others. I’m lucky that those good chances are so slim in my country, that the possible bad results outweigh the good.

        I also believe that there are reasonably large amount of people who would qualify for gun ownership, but should not have them. One too many beers, fit of anger or just general hot temperament, irresponsible people leaving their guns loaded or unlocked are all too common. We see how people drive a car and wonder how they got their license. Same applies here, once resposible gun owner turns into irresposible.

        And too many people have that switch on their head where reason does not apply when they get angry. I personally have a questionable honor to know a guy who has no mentionable criminal or mental record to my knowledge, but gets agitated and has himself fuming with rage. He is what could be called a nutjob, but not in a way that would prevent him owning a gun. One day he can tolerate and be tolerated, out of the blue start pushing wanting to fight based on what delusions he has agitated himself with. I know that if he comes to my home it’s most likely to attack me with range from insults to starting a fight, possibly with something more than bare hands.

        I still would take my chances without a gun knowing it’s relatively unlikely that it happens. And he does not have a legal gun, nor would get an illegal one (I hope).

        I respect your views and I believe they come from a place where the threat of getting into a random shootout is larger. What I meant when I blamed the ones getting shot is those people, who get into criminal life and hang out with them. Most violent gun crimes here start by people with some argument and they are not excactly best law-abiding citizens. Thus I would blame the people too who get too much mixed with them and end up shot at. I consider the chance of outsiders getting shot at small, but one to take into account.

        Also sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that you defended full-auto. You did not mention gun types at all, the topic just came to my mind since we are on the topic.

        Let’s hope the shit does not go down, no matter how we see gun ownership and gun rights. In some cities gun violence is getting out of hand and I really would like to see less bad neighborhoods and less gangs wielding guns.

      • waxwo1j0e@exploding-heads.com
        2·
        1 year ago

        Thanks for the insight. Sound like the states have a lot of good going on about guns, except for arguably stupid laws of some supposed red flag. I don’t believe such red flags exist or give enough insight to determine right to gun.

        I’ve never seen a gun as a right, because I’ve never been deprived of one. Coming from that viewpoint seeing a right to gun related to right to voice is a bit distant. But I believe I can relate, especially when comparing the demanded restrictions on free speech and why some demand it. Free speech has power of good and evil, some don’t want what they believe to be evil, but it’s just an attempt to control the discussion.