As always, I’ve crossposted this over to the OneD&D subreddit in the link below. Feel free to upvote there to raise visibility.
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/14ufvvq/is_the_dance_bard_all_that_good/
As part of preparing player characters on behalf of my less UA invested friends for a one-shot I’m running tomorrow, I made a Dance Bard. The player was excited to hear the concept, and I thought it was a really neat idea when I first read over it.
But the act of actually making it lead to a conclusion that this isn’t that great.
Yes, Charisma + Dex armor is neat, but since Shield + Light Armor would get you to the same level of AC, it isn’t an upgrade over the baseline Bard starting out. (For some reason I thought Bards got shield proficiency. This is still sub-par AC for anyone going into melee, especially without an on-turn disengage or shove) Later on when you can max out your Dex and Charisma to 20, it would be eventually higher AC, but full casters typically don’t want to put a lot of investment outside of their casting stat.
“Okay,” I thought to myself, “then let’s look at this as not a caster, but as a melee combatant who prioritizes Dexterity.” Well that’s not great either. You get to use your bonus action to cast a spell to help your attack damage, but that is limited to the 1d6/level Smite spells1, or Zephyr Strike. Shadow Blade isn’t on any spell list now either, and if it was it doesn’t bookend with any of these features anyhow so you can’t play it like a Bladesinger who is able to dump spell slots into single-target damage. But even if you did do this, that’s in direct competition to your free attack on a Bardic Inspiration.
The fact that this subclass doesn’t get a second attack at 5th or 6th level really torpedoes any sense that you’ll be getting that much out of their ‘bardic-martial-art’ die damage. Not even to mention they don’t get to pierce Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing resistance.
So what’s left?
A bard who can get an extra hit in if they’re next to an enemy when they inspire an ally, as well as use their reaction to reposition allies and get another hit in.2 This is the only reason to close to melee range on your own turn. The bard as a fullcaster would be better off using spellslots that don’t require being in melee range with their action, most of the time. What that effectively means is that you can use your attack action in lieu of a cantrip, so you get essentially 1 extra cantrip. In tier 2, they can boost their party’s initiative by an impressive amount.
That kit is flavorful, but it will be playing very much like a very normal Bard with some neat features. This feels like a faint shadow of what a Monk can do, not a replacement. Almost every Monk subclass has some way to avoid getting hit while darting in and out of combat3, while also having high movement speed. This Bard doesn’t do any of that.
Of anything that I mentioned, the repositioning of the ally and the initiative boosts are the best thing about this subclass. Everything else are ribbon abilities. If you think I’m off base, please feel free to let me know how. I’ll also be posting a followup after my playtest, but having just playtested a neat session with two monks, conceptually this doesn’t feel all that exciting.
edit: I just realized that taking Tavern Brawler at 1st level fixes this subclass’s (and Way of Mercy’s) problem with engaging in melee, and is actually quite powerful. Each time you hit someone with your unarmed strike, you can push them away. I think that it could be a mandatory feat on anyone who wants to really lean into the dance-fighting vibe of this class.
1 Altho Searing smite might be OP since you get two instances of the damage before the target gets to save and negate the burn. Which means its the best scaling Smite in the game, and exceeds what a Paladin with half-caster progression can achieve if the target fails its save once.
2 And note that Bardic Inspiration is tied to your Charisma modifier. So as resource hungry as the Monk is, this is worse.
3 Way of Mercy is the odd one out.
I wonder how this bard plays at the table. From the theory perspective it does seem like the unarmed strikes aren’t going to be winning any combats but any free attack is worth it. I think the real value is the battlefield command role to get people positioned in the correct way including yourself. I think the majority of time it will be casting spells out from the back but might get into melee range instead of casting Cantrips, there is a single boss or just to kill small minions. All full casters will primarily cast spells but it would be fun to use at lower levels and when not casting leveled spells.
The Unarmed Strike part of the subclass I think would be more for crowd control than damage. You can knock a bad guy prone thanks to having expertise in Athletics (hopefully they re-word this subclass and Martial Arts so the Shove/Grapple features of unarmed strikes can use DEX instead of STR for DCs in these two instances).
The inspiring movement allows to you move and kite (or at least reposition) yourself with no reason to get into melee yourself, and can remove a squishy from unwanted melee.
You also get Evasion to share with your party. While the range is basically non-existent, it is still evasion that you get a level earlier than the Rogue and Monk and can share with your party that is near you.
For AC, you do also get access to either or all of Shield, Mage Armor, and Shield of Faith making you hard to hit even with a slightly lower DEX to focus on CHA first. The Monk through magic initiate or multiclass could get the same but not as easily as the Bard.
In fact, there is a possible fun tag team option of the Dance Bard and Monk working together in combat. The Monk rushes in and does 2 punches, then BA Patient Defense or BA 2 more Punches. Then the Dance bard pirouettes into combat and Booming blades the enemy, uses BI in melee and knocks the enemy prone. If the enemy tries to attack, they have to either attack with disadvantage against the Monk or against the Bard with decent AC that can be boosted by the aforementioned spells, or if the Bard tries to escape the enemies reach, they have to contend with the Monk’s attack who can definitely chase them down, and when they move take the Booming Blade damage.
Plus since the Bard can share its evasion, if the Monk fails the roll, they could still pass with the Bard’s evasion, and do so at level 6 waiting on theirs for the next level.
None of that is optimized but I think if you use the Bard to do Bard stuff instead of Monk-y stuff then I think it still works out
The Unarmed Strike part of the subclass I think would be more for crowd control than damage. You can knock a bad guy prone thanks to having expertise in Athletics (hopefully they re-word this subclass and Martial Arts so the Shove/Grapple features of unarmed strikes can use DEX instead of STR for DCs in these two instances).
As you’ve pointed out, as written it doesn’t work that way, and you wouldn’t need to increase the damage die to get that effect. If that was the intent of the feature, WotC would put on a ‘push’ rider to the attack IMO.
For AC, you do also get access to either or all of Shield, Mage Armor, and Shield of Faith making you hard to hit even with a slightly lower DEX to focus on CHA first. The Monk through magic initiate or multiclass could get the same but not as easily as the Bard.
Unfortunately Mage Armor would overwrite the unarmored defense feature. Shield is the only thing that makes this class possibly have decent AC, but I am hoping and praying that it gets the nerf-stick in an upcoming UA.
But concentration spells should be avoided, unless you are putting it on a frontliner that has solid means of focusing all attack rolls onto themselves. Concentration is such a valuable resource that you can’t spend it on yourself to protect just yourself IMO.
…Booming Blade…
Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade aren’t on the spell lists for this playtest tho, which greatly reduce the capability of fullcasters’ to spellblade it up.
But in general I see this Bard as you’re depicting it, except as a support first and foremost that does not make proactive use of its unarmed attack. Because there isn’t enough incentive to put yourself into danger unless you want to save on spell slots but still deal damage.
Unfortunately Mage Armor would overwrite the unarmored defense feature. Shield is the only thing that makes this class possibly have decent AC, but I am hoping and praying that it gets the nerf-stick in an upcoming UA.
Agreed, Mage armor wouldn’t allow you to benefit from Charisma to your AC, so it wouldn’t be a massive benefit. However, given how little effort it takes to start with an AC16 (16 Dex, 16 Cha, 14 Con is easily doable at level 1), to call it anything less than decent is insulting. I guess Paladins and Fighters don’t have a decent AC either, since the chain mail they can start with has an AC of 16. Plus, a Dancer can easily hit AC 20, with no gold investment (plus has access to Shield and Absorb Elements, making their resilience even better) - tying them with Heavy armor + shield usage.
Correct. 18 is good AC at level 1, which martials can achieve by using a shield.
I absolutely think that shield (spell) should be nerfed, by the way. I agree that going arcane spell list is the only way to be a frontliner with this subclass at all as is. But that is committing your reaction to AC rather than inspired movement.
18 AC is only 10% less likely to be hit than 16 AC, and not every character will use a shield - in fact, most don’t. So now I know your understanding of the mechanics behind the game is inherently flawed.
You’re being rather belligerent for someone who is gliding over the fact that the highest resting AC you can get at level 1 is 18, using standard character creation rules.
For level 1, it’s S-Tier.
and you’re acting like 16 AC is “F” tier. If 18 is “S”, then 16, the next possible starting value, should be A. And that is more than “not decent”
Well it’s not that 16 is awful on its own. It’s awful when there aren’t any mechanisms to get out of melee without catching attacks of opportunity, and your kit wants you to be in melee.
However I have fixed one of the problems with this subclass! There’s an edit in the main post now as well attesting to this, but with Tavern Brawler, this subclass gets to swat people away from themselves all the dang time. Also, going in on Speedster at level 4 allows a dex focused Dancing Bard have that extra mobility that monks get for free, and helps them play keep-away from baddies.
The playtest itself starts in about 2 hours, and I’m quite excited to see what the player thinks… They couldn’t be bothered to do any of the character building with UA material, unfortunately.
I feel like you are completely ignoring that it is still a full spellcaster class that can choose any spell list, and even add spells from other spell lists?
IMO it’s meant to be the support spellcasting bard. In this way I agree that the melee hit is a bit out of place though.
I think this subclass is supposed to replace the lore bard because the new magical secrets works differently iirc.
A note on shadow blade : it’s a xanathar spell, so it isn’t in the UA.
That’s my take as well ultimately.
This post was more in response to the reaction to this subclass, which was broadly ‘wow how dare they do this to the monk?’
This is in no way a replacement for a monk. It’s a bard who gets to do dance moves.
Also, I’ve since realized another thing about the melee attack of this bard: Shocking Grasp exists, and scales better.
Here is the core problem with Dance Bard: It invalidates the Monk. For me the whole purpose of this subclass is to bully Monk players by the fact it can do everything Monk can do but better AND gets far more versitality Monk ever had on top of it… Hell, even some of good Monk features are rendered pathetic and underpowered by this subclass - Evasion went from a consistently good Monk feature to "Bard can get a better version of this a level earlier).I flat out told my players and wrote in survey that if anyone on the table wants to play the Monk, this subclass is instantly banned.
IMO it really, truly does not invalidate the Monk.
- Their unarmed strike isn’t any better than Shocking Grasp.
- Their AC is better with Medium Armor Proficiency and a shield.
If they got multiple attacks per turn, and a way to use them while also weaving in and out of enemy reach range without catching attacks of opportunities, then they would invalidate the monk.
- They can outdamage the Monk with spells, take Unarmed Fighting, replicate everything Monk can with Spells usually being better (eg. Stunning Strike is outdone by Hold person), then also have spells allowing to do something else on top of outdoing the Monk and they STILL get improved version of one of Monk’s better features a level early.
- So is the Monk’s, they literally got Monk’s class feature as a subclass feature. It doesn’t matter it is underpowered compared to wearing armor, it is stil lbetter on them than on a Monk, thus invaqlidating the Monk.
All I’m really hearing here is that casters are overtuned, and monks don’t have a well defined niche.
I agree with both. The Dance Bard is the least of their issue. Most of all because the Dance Bard would be LESS effective than another, more caster focused Bard.
The issue is that usually Casters can do their own thing, even when they go to meele we get something like Bladesinger or Swords Bard, who do thier own things, while Dance Bard literally just gets Monk’s features, making it clear it exists to overshadow Monk in particular. If College of Swords Bard was getting Maneuvers I would be saying it overshadows Fighter. And again, this Bard literally gets better version of one of Monk’s best features a level early, how can you not take it as spitting in Monk player’s face?
Because I have playtested monks, and their ability to control and knock enemies around while punching more often and for more damage while being quicker than the dance bard.
The dance bard in my playtest was awkward, and did less single target damage than the monks in my other playtest. It also was not able to attack and disengage for free, giving it much less of a skirmishing feeling.
A bard without any subclass features is a strong and versatile character. With the dance bard subclass, the bard is actually playing suboptimally, and does not outperform the monk in my playtest.
Again, you ignored all of my points, like GETTING ONE OF MONK’S BEST FEATURES LEVEL EARLY AND IMPROVED. And if you try to play this class as simply Monk it will struggle because Monk is poorly designed and struggles. But again, you have better version of every corresponding Monk ability, on top of other abilities and spelsl that can replace every Monk ability you don’t get. In every situation you’re more versitile, more pwoerful by simply being a caster AND then you get to outperform the Monk with better versions of its core features.
I don’t think you picked up that I playtested both, though.
The monks played okay, if rather awkward in my playtests of the rules. They should do more damage, but they were all suitably impactful in a fashion that this dance bard cannot replicate with the ribbon features it has been given.
The bard was just a bard with what is effectively a free melee attack cantrip that doesn’t scale with their casting stat. They do not step on the monk’s toes, because they were too busy casting shatter, fireball, and other uses of their magic action.
It’s flavorful and fun, but the impact of the dance bard is not on their level 3 features. It’s their level 6 features that give the class a tonne of impact.
Yes, Charisma + Dex armor is neat, but since Shield + Light Armor would get you to the same level of AC, it isn’t an upgrade over the baseline Bard starting out. (For some reason I thought Bards got shield proficiency. This is still sub-par AC for anyone going into melee, especially without an on-turn disengage or shove) Later on when you can max out your Dex and Charisma to 20, it would be eventually higher AC, but full casters typically don’t want to put a lot of investment outside of their casting stat.
And casters typically don’t have a lot to spend their stats on outside of their casting stat. Making their armor lean into them being more MAD is a good thing, since bards usually have the ASI’s to spare. Starting with AC 16, spiking to 18 by level 8 is still decent with a 16/16/14 Dex/Cha/Con spread, which is doable at level 1.
Almost every Monk subclass has some way to avoid getting hit while darting in and out of combat3
And so does the Dance Bard. Inspiring Movement does not trigger attacks of opportunity, so if an enemy ends next to one of your ally, you can move up to 15ft (halve movement) away from nearby opponents without getting attack. Your ally can then move up to 60ft (regardless of their own movement limitations) in response. It’s a bit clunky, but something that you can trigger relatively regularly.
2 And note that Bardic Inspiration is tied to your Charisma modifier. So as resource hungry as the Monk is, this is worse.
Level 5 - Bard can spend their spell slots to use Bardic Inspiration once per turn. This means a bard can get up 2 back per round from Font. (burn a spell slot on your turn to use a bardic inspiration, then on another player or opponent’s turn, burn another to gain a new one once you have used your prior).
And so does the Dance Bard. Inspiring Movement does not trigger attacks of opportunity, so if an enemy ends next to one of your ally, you can move up to 15ft (halve movement) away from nearby opponents without getting attack. Your ally can then move up to 60ft (regardless of their own movement limitations) in response. It’s a bit clunky, but something that you can trigger relatively regularly.
This doesn’t actually get YOU out of danger tho, it depends on another ally being in danger, and only after a creature was able to use its action. The ability clearly wants you to use it to swap with an ally who is in danger, and swat the offending creature. Most other monks gets to somewhat trivially prevent attacks of opportunity on their own turn, by shoving enemies away (Elements & Hand) and using their higher movement to get out of their movement range, or the ability to cover themselves with darkness to prevent enemies from being able to attack (Shadow). As a result, they can go in, attack, and move away to safety. Bards have to stand there to take it until an enemy triggers their Inspiring Movement, and they don’t have higher movement speed of a Monk.
Level 5 - Bard can spend their spell slots to use Bardic Inspiration once per turn. This means a bard can get up 2 back per round from Font. (burn a spell slot on your turn to use a bardic inspiration, then on another player or opponent’s turn, burn another to gain a new one once you have used your prior).
That’s a good point! I didn’t clock that, mostly because I only built the Bard up to level 4 and I was looking over the subclass more than the main class. That would be a good exchange in the right situation. Cheers!
This doesn’t actually get YOU out of danger tho
It does. Enemy moves next to ally, you can move away and your ally can move too. It’s clunky in that you can’t trigger it, and it requires the enemy to target your ally over you, but it works. (And I disagree it’s wanting you to swap with your ally - the movement limitation and the range on it make it very clear that is not the case. If it was meant for you to move up to 60ft, you’d not have your movement halved - it’s more meant to let your party rearrange and deny enemy attacks more than anything. The free parting shot is just that, a nice bonus rider)
Okay but compare that to 3/4 monks, who get to attack an enemy on their turn, and either push them far away at the end of their attacks or disengage for free, and then use their +15 feet of movement to position themselves further away, all before an enemy creature gets to have its turn. A well played elements monk can easily outage and kite enemies without ever putting themselves into attack range as well. A shadow monk can use darkness’s full obscurement to simply walk away, or teleport far away.
The dance Bard has to get into melee range, then wait for another creature to have its full turn to do all the offensive things it wants to do, before ending its turn next to an ally, then they can move away.
It’s not at all comparable. It’s a good support ability for an ally, not a reliable mobility and disengage tool for the bard.
The dance Bard has to get into melee range, then wait for another creature to have its full turn to do all the offensive things it wants to do, before ending its turn next to an ally, then they can move away.
That’s part of the clunkiness. If it acted like the scout rogue’s ability, and triggered as soon as an enemy ended their movement next to you (or an any ally), and not end of turn next to an ally, it would be a better ability. However, the claim was that Dancer has no means to get out of melee unattacked - this is not the case. Inspiring Movement lets them do that, it’s just bad at it.
Truly what it would need to do is trigger when a creature moves within 5 ft of you or an ally.
The creatures will still melee attack prior to your reaction as is. It isn’t avoidance of the initial attack, as monks can currently perform. It’s only able to let you and an ally potentially avoid an attack of opportunity on your own turns.
