While there surely is reason to criticize Israel on many levels I don’t understand what people like you expect what Israel or any other state would do if there was a group (Hamas, which is designated as terrorist by many Democratic countries) raiding it’s territory and kills and kidnaps a number of it’s citizen.
just to put in relation 1.400/10.000.000 Israelis would equal 46.000 USA citizen (333.000.000 inhabitants). when applying this scale this would be much worse than 9/11.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
Anyway, the whole middle east is fucked up and I wish that they could finally all live in peace and ditch their religious fanaticism so the few can not exploit the religious for their fascist cause whether it be Muslim, Christian or Jewish.
It also doesn’t help that Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians either. For example when they shoot rockets and place the rocket launcher next to a hospital or school, they know it’s going to be hit by Israel at some point.
I get the reasons for both parties, but fighting isn’t going to resolve this, they have both tried for wat too long. Divide the country and get all the other nations to recognize both countries is the only thing that could work (I believe).
But what exactly would that be? Keep in mind that there is no doubt on that Hamas is a heavily armed terrorist organization.
So what should Israel have answered to hundreds of it’s citizen bring taken hostage? Again I do not say that Israel is not to be criticized for decisions and especially actions in the past where they have deported Palestinians. Even if this is the root cause of the rise of the terrorist group. This is not point of the current debate.
What differentiates Hamas from the Israel government that causes you to describe it as a terrorist organization and the Israel government as not?
The definition is killing civilians to cause political change.
Israel, by many governmental officials descriptions, is trying to cause maximum damage to Gaza in retaliation, including the deaths of a civilian population. Most of whom, notably were too young to vote for Hamas.
Israel has repeatedly bombed hospitals run by MSF, schools, and ambulances. They always claim Hamas was there, and yet, the MSF doctors state they weren’t. The schools weren’t likely housing Hamas, and when journalists check the ambulances, find no weapons or military uniforms.
Let me ask you this: what could Israel do that you wouldn’t think is justified?
Please, answer that. I’d be willing to bet I could find an example. And if there is nothing, then I know you’re an extremist that is okay with genocide.
Jesus Christ, really? Bombing a Hospital is NEVER a good idea and in multiple comments I do explicitly state that Israel IS to be criticized, which, you know, is the opposite of justifying. Again I do not justify them bombing hospitals and killing civilians, I said they should definitely take more action to prevent civilian casualties. I’ve seen the Videos where Palestinians are being harassed by Israelis which is to condemn. And AGAIN, I do not deny that this could be the root cause of the rise of Hamas. But this also does not justify killing Israeli civilians either (or many other civilians with international citizenship).
It’s all fucked up and I can barely make up an opinion about all this. And AGAIN, my point is simply to take EVERY piece of information with a grain of salt, but the thing is that Israel has information advantage right now as international press has more access and security on their side atm. This does not mean that press is 100% free there either as it was just very recently reported that German Journalists were still held up or even harassed by IDF Soldiers. But how can I atm know if this was a nervous soldier in fear of his security or a decision made from the top government? I genuinely do not know.
However, any discussion about this is a tightrope walk after all. I won’t bother any longer.
The Palestinians tried a peaceful protest in the march of return two years ago.
The IDF slaughtered them, intentionally targeting medics.
Bibi used coded language in a speech in Hebrew calling the Palestinians amaleks. God ordered the Jewish tribe, in the old testament, to slaughter the amaleks man, woman, child, and beast of burden.
CNN was allowed a journalist to embed with the IDF, but only if the IDF was allowed full editorial control. FULL control.
At this point, you not knowing this is likely you ‘just trying to ask questions’ in a bad faith effort to justify genocide, which you obliquely admit to in another comment. Israel is still not allowing food or water in.
I think it’s fair to criticize Israeli tactics and overall strategy, but most of the blanket condemnation you see on Lemmy is indicative of pure moral confusion and/or an unfamiliarity with historical and contemporary facts. That the outrage is so selective --it’s never applied to other similar and even unprovoked civilian massacres-- tells us everything we need to know about how well-thought-out it is.
Israel lost 0.014% of its population to the Hamas attack. Gaza has lost about 0.52% of its population to Israel’s rampage and that over 40% of those deaths are children. How is that comparable at all?
I appreciate your attempt to bring rationality and reason to the discussion, but you’re wasting your time on this shithole.
yeah, I realized this half way through typing but wanted to finish this anyway.
And yeah, asking for independent verification the way you did absolutely implies denial. I should have realized that from your instance that you’re from a country that literally defines anti-Zionism as antisemitism.
Wow. Now the instance I am coming is the point of debate. Honestly, you are not interested in any honest discussion after all. I don’t have any political agenda with me like you obviously do.
All I do is wish for war and terrorism to end and this needs democratic processes and independent press after all. This is my point.
Here’s one, sorta, that doesn’t include where they checked a Palestinian employees family bit, but it’s the middle of the night and I’m trying to go back to sleep. I’ll find it in the morning.
So in other words if this killing helps rooting out Hamas then it is all justified. Because obviously the next generation of Palestinians will be thankful that their siblings, parents, grandparents where rooted out of their homes or slaughtered in the name of anti-terrorism action as collateral damage. Surely nobody growing up without prospects and has to deal with such hardships will wabt any revenge or justice for their sufferings. Surely this will not radicalize the middle east any further.
In fact they should be grateful that they are honored to die in the name of Israëls justice.
I don’t want to justify, all I am looking for is a discussion. I could not provide a solution either and I do not support war. All I am saying is that I don’t know what to expect from a country to do.
I do not excuse killing of civilians or even genocide and personally think that Israel should take more care about civilians which is even in alignment with the statement of Mr. Blinken. Also they may rightfully be criticized in relation to blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza.
All I do say is that unbased information is hard to come by at this stage as the information sphere from inside Gaza is mostly controlled by Hamas. Israel surely is no unbiased source of news either, but international press has more access there. Again I do not neglect nor justify killing civilians and especially children. But still it should be distinguished between actual genocide which includes intentionally deporting and killing civilians and collateral damage, both of which are to condemn, as are the actions of Hamas relating to raiding and terrorizing Israel civilians and taking them hostage. This is no way of deescalation obviously either.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
This is you ‘both-siding’ genocide.
There is one proper response to genocide. Unconditional condemnation without qualifying. Anything else is standing idlely by.
Criticism while also saying ‘but Hamas did this’ is not unconditional condemnation.
Let me ask you this: do you think there is any behavior that can justify genocide?
You can take issue with the numbers and be as conspiratorial about them as you like, but that goalpost movement doesn’t do anything to support your point.
Your unwillingness to label the killing of thousands of children in either regard shows an apologism and an intellectual dishonesty that doesn’t bely any useful contribution to the discussion.
Faux impartiality and centrism is the kind of toxic behaviour that lets these atrocities go unchecked.
Huh? I don’t have a strong opinion on any of this and do not deny. I would prefer independent investigations on this by parties not involved in this conflict (or war or potential genocide whatever you want to call this).
More than half of the population, about 52%, were under the age of 18, making them children.
Indiscriminate bombing, which Israel is doing, will cause about half of those fatalities to be children.
Asking for independent journalistic verification in a war zone where Israel won’t let independent journalists in is the equivalent of denying. You know there is no verification meeting your impossible standards.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
This is you justifying it.
Let me guess: you’re a member of the Alternative for Germany party?
you’re a member of the Alternative for Germany party?
Hahaha never. Now fuck off with them Nazis.
Edit: To be clear and give my final statement. I am not politically active and do not have an agenda. I am not member of any political party, but I do actively vote and politically debate with friends. Currently i would consider myself mostly in line with the green party while having a negative view on both extremist left and right boundaries but I also dislike the major parties curruption riddled SPD (esp. Scholz), CDU and inhumane corporate and lobby party FDP. AfD and the other Nazi parties are the worst obviously.
No, I do not justify bombing civilian infrastructure. I do try to explain why civilian casualties are too high. While Hamas should not use civilians as human shields, Israel should not bomb them non the less and disregard civilian casualties. It’s both wrong.
What do I expect them to do? Not ‘mow the grass’ every couple of years. Not use soldiers to protect murderers as the ‘settlers’, sorry, thieves go in and steal more of west bank. Somewhere that has no hamas, by the by.
What do I expect them to do? Not commit genocide. That’s what I expect.
I also expect them not to be a white supremacist apartheid ethno state, but I know that one isn’t possible, just as I know that it isn’t possible to not expect them to be terrorists or commit the Nakba, or to socialize with the Irgun.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
This is literally justification.
Maybe try not justifying the murder of over 10,000 civilians if you don’t want toxicity.
Israel doesn’t exist just because of or for Zionists. Or do you propose everyone who was born there but happens to not be a Palestinian should leave the country?
It exists to be a unsinkable US aircraft carrier parked at the crossroads of Asia, Africa and Europe. It’s an ethnostate where non-jews are disenfranchised and nonwhite Jews are sterilized.
Jews, Christians and Muslims coexisted in Palestine long before the European colony arrived.
No, I advocate for them to demand a single Democratic state with Democratic rights for everyone, regardless of ethnicity. Since, you know, they’ve intentionally done everything possible to kill a two state solution.
Otherwise, they promote an apartheid vision for the region.
Also, it does exist solely because of Zionists. Where do you think it came from?
While there surely is reason to criticize Israel on many levels I don’t understand what people like you expect what Israel or any other state would do if there was a group (Hamas, which is designated as terrorist by many Democratic countries) raiding it’s territory and kills and kidnaps a number of it’s citizen.
just to put in relation 1.400/10.000.000 Israelis would equal 46.000 USA citizen (333.000.000 inhabitants). when applying this scale this would be much worse than 9/11.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
Anyway, the whole middle east is fucked up and I wish that they could finally all live in peace and ditch their religious fanaticism so the few can not exploit the religious for their fascist cause whether it be Muslim, Christian or Jewish.
It also doesn’t help that Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians either. For example when they shoot rockets and place the rocket launcher next to a hospital or school, they know it’s going to be hit by Israel at some point.
I get the reasons for both parties, but fighting isn’t going to resolve this, they have both tried for wat too long. Divide the country and get all the other nations to recognize both countries is the only thing that could work (I believe).
I’d expect them to take actions that won’t make sure there will be easier to radicalize people against them.
Their actions are the biggest advertisement for enlisting terrorists that will fight them 10 years from now.
Right. That would surely be better.
But what exactly would that be? Keep in mind that there is no doubt on that Hamas is a heavily armed terrorist organization.
So what should Israel have answered to hundreds of it’s citizen bring taken hostage? Again I do not say that Israel is not to be criticized for decisions and especially actions in the past where they have deported Palestinians. Even if this is the root cause of the rise of the terrorist group. This is not point of the current debate.
What differentiates Hamas from the Israel government that causes you to describe it as a terrorist organization and the Israel government as not?
The definition is killing civilians to cause political change.
Israel, by many governmental officials descriptions, is trying to cause maximum damage to Gaza in retaliation, including the deaths of a civilian population. Most of whom, notably were too young to vote for Hamas.
Israel has repeatedly bombed hospitals run by MSF, schools, and ambulances. They always claim Hamas was there, and yet, the MSF doctors state they weren’t. The schools weren’t likely housing Hamas, and when journalists check the ambulances, find no weapons or military uniforms.
Let me ask you this: what could Israel do that you wouldn’t think is justified?
Please, answer that. I’d be willing to bet I could find an example. And if there is nothing, then I know you’re an extremist that is okay with genocide.
Jesus Christ, really? Bombing a Hospital is NEVER a good idea and in multiple comments I do explicitly state that Israel IS to be criticized, which, you know, is the opposite of justifying. Again I do not justify them bombing hospitals and killing civilians, I said they should definitely take more action to prevent civilian casualties. I’ve seen the Videos where Palestinians are being harassed by Israelis which is to condemn. And AGAIN, I do not deny that this could be the root cause of the rise of Hamas. But this also does not justify killing Israeli civilians either (or many other civilians with international citizenship).
It’s all fucked up and I can barely make up an opinion about all this. And AGAIN, my point is simply to take EVERY piece of information with a grain of salt, but the thing is that Israel has information advantage right now as international press has more access and security on their side atm. This does not mean that press is 100% free there either as it was just very recently reported that German Journalists were still held up or even harassed by IDF Soldiers. But how can I atm know if this was a nervous soldier in fear of his security or a decision made from the top government? I genuinely do not know.
However, any discussion about this is a tightrope walk after all. I won’t bother any longer.
The Palestinians tried a peaceful protest in the march of return two years ago.
The IDF slaughtered them, intentionally targeting medics.
Bibi used coded language in a speech in Hebrew calling the Palestinians amaleks. God ordered the Jewish tribe, in the old testament, to slaughter the amaleks man, woman, child, and beast of burden.
CNN was allowed a journalist to embed with the IDF, but only if the IDF was allowed full editorial control. FULL control.
At this point, you not knowing this is likely you ‘just trying to ask questions’ in a bad faith effort to justify genocide, which you obliquely admit to in another comment. Israel is still not allowing food or water in.
I think it’s fair to criticize Israeli tactics and overall strategy, but most of the blanket condemnation you see on Lemmy is indicative of pure moral confusion and/or an unfamiliarity with historical and contemporary facts. That the outrage is so selective --it’s never applied to other similar and even unprovoked civilian massacres-- tells us everything we need to know about how well-thought-out it is.
Israel lost 0.014% of its population to the Hamas attack. Gaza has lost about 0.52% of its population to Israel’s rampage and that over 40% of those deaths are children. How is that comparable at all?
Where is that info from? Gonna wait for independent journalists to provide information on this, right?
Fuck off genocide denier. More than half of the population was children.
Also, the list of the dead has been attempted to be verified by major news organizations, and has been successfully.
I don’t deny anything? I am looking for information. What about you?
Heres some simple information. Gazas population was over 50 percent under 18. I.e. children.
It’s within reasonable margin to divide the casualties by two to get the number of dead children.
I personally have two friends who’ve had their entire extended families blown up.
I should have known better:
And yeah, asking for independent verification the way you did absolutely implies denial. I should have realized that from your instance that you’re from a country that literally defines anti-Zionism as antisemitism.
Wow. Now the instance I am coming is the point of debate. Honestly, you are not interested in any honest discussion after all. I don’t have any political agenda with me like you obviously do.
All I do is wish for war and terrorism to end and this needs democratic processes and independent press after all. This is my point.
I do have a political agenda. Not tolerating or trying to justify genocide.
I’m pretty satisfied with the morality of the political stance of ‘Never Again’
There is no middle ground or appeasement to genocide.
Care to provide a link or smth?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/
Here’s one, sorta, that doesn’t include where they checked a Palestinian employees family bit, but it’s the middle of the night and I’m trying to go back to sleep. I’ll find it in the morning.
Hmmm…
So in other words if this killing helps rooting out Hamas then it is all justified. Because obviously the next generation of Palestinians will be thankful that their siblings, parents, grandparents where rooted out of their homes or slaughtered in the name of anti-terrorism action as collateral damage. Surely nobody growing up without prospects and has to deal with such hardships will wabt any revenge or justice for their sufferings. Surely this will not radicalize the middle east any further. In fact they should be grateful that they are honored to die in the name of Israëls justice.
If it wasn’t clear this is obviously sarcastic…
Ironically the same excuse for mass murder in Germany sometime between 1930-1950.
I don’t want to justify, all I am looking for is a discussion. I could not provide a solution either and I do not support war. All I am saying is that I don’t know what to expect from a country to do.
I do not excuse killing of civilians or even genocide and personally think that Israel should take more care about civilians which is even in alignment with the statement of Mr. Blinken. Also they may rightfully be criticized in relation to blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza.
All I do say is that unbased information is hard to come by at this stage as the information sphere from inside Gaza is mostly controlled by Hamas. Israel surely is no unbiased source of news either, but international press has more access there. Again I do not neglect nor justify killing civilians and especially children. But still it should be distinguished between actual genocide which includes intentionally deporting and killing civilians and collateral damage, both of which are to condemn, as are the actions of Hamas relating to raiding and terrorizing Israel civilians and taking them hostage. This is no way of deescalation obviously either.
Not letting food and water sufficient for a population of 2.2 million in when you control the borders is intentionally killing civilians.
Yes and they should be condemned for this and they are.
Not by you:
This is you ‘both-siding’ genocide.
There is one proper response to genocide. Unconditional condemnation without qualifying. Anything else is standing idlely by.
Criticism while also saying ‘but Hamas did this’ is not unconditional condemnation.
Let me ask you this: do you think there is any behavior that can justify genocide?
You can take issue with the numbers and be as conspiratorial about them as you like, but that goalpost movement doesn’t do anything to support your point.
Your unwillingness to label the killing of thousands of children in either regard shows an apologism and an intellectual dishonesty that doesn’t bely any useful contribution to the discussion.
Faux impartiality and centrism is the kind of toxic behaviour that lets these atrocities go unchecked.
Jesus fucking Christ. I am not unwilling and I do not deny this.
Well, I have work to do. Read all my other comments on this post.
The other comment:
Huh? I don’t have a strong opinion on any of this and do not deny. I would prefer independent investigations on this by parties not involved in this conflict (or war or potential genocide whatever you want to call this).
More than half of the population, about 52%, were under the age of 18, making them children.
Indiscriminate bombing, which Israel is doing, will cause about half of those fatalities to be children.
Asking for independent journalistic verification in a war zone where Israel won’t let independent journalists in is the equivalent of denying. You know there is no verification meeting your impossible standards.
This is you justifying it.
Let me guess: you’re a member of the Alternative for Germany party?
Hahaha never. Now fuck off with them Nazis.
Edit: To be clear and give my final statement. I am not politically active and do not have an agenda. I am not member of any political party, but I do actively vote and politically debate with friends. Currently i would consider myself mostly in line with the green party while having a negative view on both extremist left and right boundaries but I also dislike the major parties curruption riddled SPD (esp. Scholz), CDU and inhumane corporate and lobby party FDP. AfD and the other Nazi parties are the worst obviously.
No, I do not justify bombing civilian infrastructure. I do try to explain why civilian casualties are too high. While Hamas should not use civilians as human shields, Israel should not bomb them non the less and disregard civilian casualties. It’s both wrong.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2010/11/26/israel-soldiers-punishment-using-boy-human-shield-inadequate
This is what human shields look like.
As Israel has done to Palistinians already for years?
But that just gets swept under the carpet when Israel does it.
Israels actions standing over the Palestine should have had them classed as terrorists long ago.
Hamas is no better though, leaving 2 terrorist organisations fighting while innocents suffer.
read my other comments
Read up on operation cast lead. That is what human shields looks like, and it wasn’t the Palestinians that did it.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2010/11/26/israel-soldiers-punishment-using-boy-human-shield-inadequate
What do I expect them to do? Not ‘mow the grass’ every couple of years. Not use soldiers to protect murderers as the ‘settlers’, sorry, thieves go in and steal more of west bank. Somewhere that has no hamas, by the by.
What do I expect them to do? Not commit genocide. That’s what I expect.
I also expect them not to be a white supremacist apartheid ethno state, but I know that one isn’t possible, just as I know that it isn’t possible to not expect them to be terrorists or commit the Nakba, or to socialize with the Irgun.
Fuck off you genocide excuser.
maybe try to discuss without being toxic? I do never excuse any genocide.
This is literally justification.
Maybe try not justifying the murder of over 10,000 civilians if you don’t want toxicity.
Removed by mod
Anyone conflating being anti-Zionist with being antisemitic isn’t being reasonable.
I would argue it’s pretty antisemitic to think that Israel speaks for all Jewish people.
Israel doesn’t exist just because of or for Zionists. Or do you propose everyone who was born there but happens to not be a Palestinian should leave the country?
It exists to be a unsinkable US aircraft carrier parked at the crossroads of Asia, Africa and Europe. It’s an ethnostate where non-jews are disenfranchised and nonwhite Jews are sterilized.
Jews, Christians and Muslims coexisted in Palestine long before the European colony arrived.
Fucking Germans I swear
No, I advocate for them to demand a single Democratic state with Democratic rights for everyone, regardless of ethnicity. Since, you know, they’ve intentionally done everything possible to kill a two state solution.
Otherwise, they promote an apartheid vision for the region.
Also, it does exist solely because of Zionists. Where do you think it came from?
yeah, I realized this half way through typing but wanted to finish this anyway.