Of course the point is technically correct. Men are being hurt by the patriarchy in many diverse ways, in the same way that anti-Black racism hurts white people (for example, through loss of bargaining power in segregated workplaces), and transphobia hurts cis people (through vilifying all kinds of gender nonconforming expressions or even simply being a woman born with masculine looking physiology).
But articles like these are literally not written to help the men affected by it, they are written to police victims’ language and turn around the blame for sexism on women once again. It’s shifting the entire blame of patriarchy away from men who actually perpetuate it to “traumatized women who vent about being constantly harassed and assaulted by men and do not put ten disclaimers behind their words”.
The Venn diagram between people who go like “please don’t say ‘I hate men’, it hurts men too” and people who think that a 12 year old Palestinian kid deserved to die for not distancing themselves from Hamas enough before being drone striked is a solid circle.
There is a time and place for these debates, and policing people’s languages is not one of them.
I can’t see how anything is being diverted here. They are two distinct issues and we have to be able to acknowledge more than one societal problem at a time if we are to make meaningful changes.
They are not distinct issues. Both of these issues are directly caused by toxic masculinity espousing men in the exact same way.
There is no “anti-man sexism”. There is literally only “alpha bro” kinds of men beating down on everyone they see as inferior: women, and other men.
It depends on the definition of discrimination. Discrimination can be a power thing, in which case it cannot be, since women do not hold a social position of power that is able to oppress men in any society. If you define it as a thing of “being mean to one another individually”, sure; but who talks about that right now?
I think reducing the cause of these societal failings down to “alpha bros” is oversimplifying too much though. They are systemic issues, and a solution for one will not necessarily be the solution to the other. Ensuring women’s equality won’t inherently eliminate the pressures that prevent men from opening up emotionally, and vice versa. They both need to be talked about.
The Venn diagram between people who go like “please don’t say ‘I hate men’, it hurts men too” and people who think that a 12 year old Palestinian kid deserved to die for not distancing themselves from Hamas enough before being drone striked is a solid circle.
Well no. I wouldn’t put it like that but I think that statement is sexist, but obviously don’t agree with the Palestinian kid one. So hello from outside the circle.
Of course the point is technically correct. Men are being hurt by the patriarchy in many diverse ways, in the same way that anti-Black racism hurts white people (for example, through loss of bargaining power in segregated workplaces), and transphobia hurts cis people (through vilifying all kinds of gender nonconforming expressions or even simply being a woman born with masculine looking physiology).
Not sure about the race example but yes exactly, thank you.
But articles like these are literally not written to help the men affected by it, they are written to police victims’ language and turn around the blame for sexism on women once again.
This is your framing from your own personal perspective. You were originally responding to someone who surely isn’t attempting to blame sexism on women. I’m sure you can see how a statement like “men are trash” is sexist. Just like feminists are correct to call out anyone saying “women are trash,” men are totally within their rights to call this out and discuss how sexism in society affects them too. This post is the perfect example, men need to be able to step outside of this context where they are treated like monsters (or rapists, as you said) or like their needs are less important. Things would be better for everyone if men had the emotional support offered to women. Even the bad ones might not be so bad if they felt less devalued and disposable.
I’m sorry if you’ve been traumatized and I totally see how having your words scrutinised like this is annoying as shit if you’re just looking to vent, but the whole point is that nobody should have to experience sexism. And that includes men. Treat others how you want to be treated and all that.
Technically if interpreted as written, it would be, yeah. But we have this great thing called nuance, which tells us that if someone suffers their entire life from trauma, then policing their language about their trauma is not something that we do.
If a Polish kid during World War 2 decided to hate Germans, technically it’d be a bigoted statement, but who would fault them? Who would make it a point to attack this kid for being xenophobic given his history? Who would seriously die on that hill?
I’m sure you can see how a statement like “men are trash” is sexist.
It is only if you read it literally, which anyone with a brain does not, because we live under patriarchy, and any such statement directed at men from a clearly traumatized minority obviously means those espousing the toxic traits of masculinity that society marks as essential for manhood. “Men” clearly means “typical men”.
Just like feminists are correct to call out anyone saying “women are trash,” men are totally within their rights to call this out
The difference is that we live under patriarchy. Someone saying “women are trash” is not venting about their trauma about women, they are kicking down from a position of privilege unto a minority. People saying “men are trash”, unless they’re really bonkers, obviously mean the constructed, toxic definition of “men” as applied in “real men” or “manliness”.
Even the bad ones might not be so bad if they felt less devalued and disposable.
Which is not women’s fault, but again, men’s. It’s an internal issue between each other. They literally beat each other up, scream, yell, compete, make everything into a violent contest. Attack men if you want to combat that behavior, because it’s only men who perpetuate it.
I’m sorry if you’ve been traumatized and I totally see how having your words scrutinised like this is annoying as shit if you’re just looking to vent, but the whole point is that nobody should have to experience sexism. And that includes men. Treat others how you want to be treated and all that.
I am just simply sick and tired of the vast majority of guys consistently making life hell for everyone else on the planet every single day, including even each other, and then suddenly we are supposed to care for their feefees. I do not. Let them solve it with their alpha lifestyle and superior intellect. I do not care a single inch whether a rapist feels unfairly treated.
Which is not women’s fault, but again, men’s. It’s an internal issue between each other. They literally beat each other up, scream, yell, compete, make everything into a violent contest. Attack men if you want to combat that behavior, because it’s only men who perpetuate it.
And sexist.
So I’m not interested in talking anymore. Good luck with all this hate.
You are the kind of person to call MLK a racist for being critical of white people’s complicity in segregation.
Oppressors’ crocodile tears. History will judge you.
Also no, I’m not. Probably won’t find many brown people that are. Of course you don’t care about what I think because 1) I am a man and 2) you already made up your mind what type of person I am and are completely unwilling to accept that you are wrong
The present had been judging a lot of righteous people. Alan Turing was killed for being gay. History absolved him.
I am also a guy, by the way, if you care…
I think just having some empathy would really help you here. The point is not difficult to understand
Of course the point is technically correct. Men are being hurt by the patriarchy in many diverse ways, in the same way that anti-Black racism hurts white people (for example, through loss of bargaining power in segregated workplaces), and transphobia hurts cis people (through vilifying all kinds of gender nonconforming expressions or even simply being a woman born with masculine looking physiology).
But articles like these are literally not written to help the men affected by it, they are written to police victims’ language and turn around the blame for sexism on women once again. It’s shifting the entire blame of patriarchy away from men who actually perpetuate it to “traumatized women who vent about being constantly harassed and assaulted by men and do not put ten disclaimers behind their words”. The Venn diagram between people who go like “please don’t say ‘I hate men’, it hurts men too” and people who think that a 12 year old Palestinian kid deserved to die for not distancing themselves from Hamas enough before being drone striked is a solid circle.
There is a time and place for these debates, and policing people’s languages is not one of them.
This article is about how everyone needs support, only the last comment on it even mentioned the language.
Yeah, it is diverting the conversation about women’s issues into an “acktschually meeeeen?” thing. Because we haven’t talked about men in two seconds.
I can’t see how anything is being diverted here. They are two distinct issues and we have to be able to acknowledge more than one societal problem at a time if we are to make meaningful changes.
They are not distinct issues. Both of these issues are directly caused by toxic masculinity espousing men in the exact same way. There is no “anti-man sexism”. There is literally only “alpha bro” kinds of men beating down on everyone they see as inferior: women, and other men.
Do you genuinely believe that a man has never been discriminated against in some way by a woman because of his sex in the history of the world?
It depends on the definition of discrimination. Discrimination can be a power thing, in which case it cannot be, since women do not hold a social position of power that is able to oppress men in any society. If you define it as a thing of “being mean to one another individually”, sure; but who talks about that right now?
I think reducing the cause of these societal failings down to “alpha bros” is oversimplifying too much though. They are systemic issues, and a solution for one will not necessarily be the solution to the other. Ensuring women’s equality won’t inherently eliminate the pressures that prevent men from opening up emotionally, and vice versa. They both need to be talked about.
Well no. I wouldn’t put it like that but I think that statement is sexist, but obviously don’t agree with the Palestinian kid one. So hello from outside the circle.
Not sure about the race example but yes exactly, thank you.
This is your framing from your own personal perspective. You were originally responding to someone who surely isn’t attempting to blame sexism on women. I’m sure you can see how a statement like “men are trash” is sexist. Just like feminists are correct to call out anyone saying “women are trash,” men are totally within their rights to call this out and discuss how sexism in society affects them too. This post is the perfect example, men need to be able to step outside of this context where they are treated like monsters (or rapists, as you said) or like their needs are less important. Things would be better for everyone if men had the emotional support offered to women. Even the bad ones might not be so bad if they felt less devalued and disposable.
I’m sorry if you’ve been traumatized and I totally see how having your words scrutinised like this is annoying as shit if you’re just looking to vent, but the whole point is that nobody should have to experience sexism. And that includes men. Treat others how you want to be treated and all that.
(edit: fixed formatting, sorry)
Technically if interpreted as written, it would be, yeah. But we have this great thing called nuance, which tells us that if someone suffers their entire life from trauma, then policing their language about their trauma is not something that we do. If a Polish kid during World War 2 decided to hate Germans, technically it’d be a bigoted statement, but who would fault them? Who would make it a point to attack this kid for being xenophobic given his history? Who would seriously die on that hill?
It is only if you read it literally, which anyone with a brain does not, because we live under patriarchy, and any such statement directed at men from a clearly traumatized minority obviously means those espousing the toxic traits of masculinity that society marks as essential for manhood. “Men” clearly means “typical men”.
The difference is that we live under patriarchy. Someone saying “women are trash” is not venting about their trauma about women, they are kicking down from a position of privilege unto a minority. People saying “men are trash”, unless they’re really bonkers, obviously mean the constructed, toxic definition of “men” as applied in “real men” or “manliness”.
Which is not women’s fault, but again, men’s. It’s an internal issue between each other. They literally beat each other up, scream, yell, compete, make everything into a violent contest. Attack men if you want to combat that behavior, because it’s only men who perpetuate it.
I am just simply sick and tired of the vast majority of guys consistently making life hell for everyone else on the planet every single day, including even each other, and then suddenly we are supposed to care for their feefees. I do not. Let them solve it with their alpha lifestyle and superior intellect. I do not care a single inch whether a rapist feels unfairly treated.
Ok well I think you’re wrong.
And sexist.
So I’m not interested in talking anymore. Good luck with all this hate.
You are the kind of person to call MLK a racist for being critical of white people’s complicity in segregation. Oppressors’ crocodile tears. History will judge you.
The present is judging you.
Also no, I’m not. Probably won’t find many brown people that are. Of course you don’t care about what I think because 1) I am a man and 2) you already made up your mind what type of person I am and are completely unwilling to accept that you are wrong
The present had been judging a lot of righteous people. Alan Turing was killed for being gay. History absolved him. I am also a guy, by the way, if you care…
Doesn’t make any difference to me.
Edit: so wait, are you trash? Are you a rapist?