I have a pretty unique perspective on this as someone who’s worked in churches my entire adult life. Probably the hardest interview question I’ve ever been asked–across both technical and non-technical interviews–was when I was interviewing to be the organist at a large UMC church in early 2019, right before the General Conference vote that set all of this off. They basically summarized the situation to me and then asked if I was comfortable coming into the position not knowing which way the vote would go. In many ways, this question felt like asking if I had principles and if I was willing to stick to them. As a progressive person, I had to really think about if I’d be ok being in a place where I wouldn’t be allowed to play for a same-sex wedding.
That church’s senior pastor was one of the leading figures in the movement to affirm LGBTQ members. We quietly performed at least one same-sex marriage while I was there, which was technically in defiance of the denomination’s restrictions. Since then, I’ve moved to one of the most prominent progressive mainline Protestant megachurches in the US. We’ve had long standing partnerships with many LGTBQ organizations, and we do lots of tangible things for all sorts of underrepresented communities. We had a visiting trans pastor speak about a month ago, and they received an instant ovation from the congregation.
My point in all of this is that it frustrates me to see comment sections like much of this one where people insist that every church is a highly regressive place. As someone who’s in the closed door meetings, I promise you that there are many that are not, and it’s not just all a ploy to try to stay relevant in today’s society. Some places really do support these causes because they believe in them.
(As a footnote, I’ll say that I don’t like to talk about my religious views online, as it might put me in a weird position with my current and potential future employers. An acquaintance of mine wrote a great blog post that sums up my feelings well.)
Your point is well-made, but I worry you’re applying literal interpretation to rhetorical generalizing that require slightly deeper reading. For better or worse, humans like to make sweeping generalizations, and only in the most extreme instances do they legitimately believe they apply to everyone in that given population.
For example: The women tweeting about how “men suck” isn’t thinking of every man that has ever existed; she knows men aren’t a monolith; she has a picture in her mind of a particular type of man, one that has been a source of trauma for her and countless other women. If you know you aren’t that type of man, then you know that her words aren’t directed at you; the same principle, imo, applies to churches and religion.
Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but on the whole religion is used as a tool of exclusion and oppression much more than it is used to promote compassion and progress. When people make generalizations about churches and religion, they’re envisioning the regressive, bigoted zealot that has been the source of trauma for so many. The church you describe would not fall into that category, so try not to take such comments to heart.
Removed by mod
A mistranslation of some milennia-old texts, published by a bunch of crusty old 17th-century white men is an interesting hill to die on, isn’t it? Imagine what these self-righteous bigots would do to Jesus (a bold and prominent brown socialist) if they met him on the street.
A lot of these pastors have to be looking at their steadily declining congregations and thinking maybe it’s not the kids who are wrong, after all.
That requires at least a mediocre amount of critical thinking skills and those are taboo in religious organizations, so doubt it.
Can we please move beyond this 2010 New Atheism view that every religious leader/person is stupid and unable to critically think? It is such a lazy and black-and-white view of a massive global population full of diverse people, thoughts, and beliefs.
Can we please move beyond this 2010 New Atheism view that every religious leader/person is stupid and unable to critically think?
Why? They clearly choose not to apply that ability to a big part of their lives. In this specific case under discussion, their entire career requires not applying any critical thinking. Their paycheck depends on their ability to convince other people of things that are not and can never be supported by any actual evidence.
It’s the reason that crowd is so susceptible, as a trend, to con men, malicious misinformation, and developing entire belief systems off a Facebook meme that pairs one politician’s face with a fake quote or a quote from a totally different politician. They’re trained, often from birth, that evidence is not necessary in the process of deciding what you want to believe; in fact, that evidence is often the bad guy (in that it opposes “faith”).
So, no. We’ll drop the characterization if and only if it stops being relevant to our day-to-day lives in America. It’s not the atheists who are saying they think I should get the death penalty (DeSantis’s preacher), that I should be shot in the back of the head (Texas Baptist Church), that God should kill me slowly (Pure Words Baptist Church), and that I should be hunted with dogs (governor of SC).
Okay so you’re going to sit here with a straight face and tell me that you honestly believe EVERY SINGLE RELIGIOUS PERSON EVER has no critical thinking skills?The LGBTQIA+ pastors that started a socialist christian church in Kentucky? MLK? Malcom X? Johann Bernoulli, Blaise Pascal, and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, all of whom are some of the most important mathematicians in history and were religious, all couldn’t think for themselves? Immanuel Kant, famous influential philosopher, no critical thinking. Every Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindi, Buddhist, Shintoists, and every other religion in existence throughout history, not a single person alive today who believes in religion can think for themselves? Between 70-85% of the global population (depending on what source you look at) report themselves as follower of a religion. No critical thinking abilities across 75% of the global population?
you honestly believe EVERY SINGLE RELIGIOUS PERSON EVER has no critical thinking skills?
I honestly believe the ones that matter certainly don’t. The ones who are paying the church’s bills and showing up to their pep rallies every week are very clearly not spending any time thinking about it.
The LGBTQIA+ pastors that started a socialist christian church in Kentucky?
Who? Let me know when they start affecting actual government policy, or even just going on TV and saying “We condemn those other Christians who say gay people should be shot in the back of the head.” That’s what we’ve been demanding from Muslims since 2001, why are you special?
MLK? Malcom X? Johann Bernoulli, Blaise Pascal, and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz,
Blah blah blah, fallacious appeal to authority, blah blah blah. Name-dropping is not “critical thinking”, and you really shouldn’t have included a literal, straight-up alchemist in that list if you were trying to use it to make a point.
all of whom are some of the most important mathematicians in history and were religious, all couldn’t think for themselves?
MLK and Malcom X were mathematicians? TIL.
Immanuel Kant, famous influential philosopher, no critical thinking.
So what I’m hearing you say here is: “If smart people believe in magic sky fairy, magic sky fairy must be logical to believe in,” which is about the level of discourse I’d expect from someone unfamiliar with the concept of critical thinking. Thanks for being an object lesson.
Please disengage, this is simply not productive. I understand you may have been tangibly hurt by religious folks who have persecuted you or your loved ones. I have suffered real harm from this as well. But making sweeping statements about broad categories of people is generally not a great take and being confrontational with a moderator asking for some civility in a thread and appealing to humanity is not a good look.
They’re responding to the mods energy.
You know, it’s fine to dislike religious people and believe different things. But you’re acting pretty intolerant here. Insulting others beliefs and intelligence isn’t cool just cause you disagree with it.
“Level of discourse…from someone unfamiliar with the concept of critical thinking.” “Magical sky faerie” “fallacious appeal to authority”. You sound like a pseudo-intellectual who gets off on putting down others and you found a population that you feel you’re allowed to do this to.
Reported your comment as well. You don’t have to be nasty just cause you dislike someone’s perspective on life. And don’t hit me with “well they hate xyz people”. I know you know not all religious folks share the same view - or I’d at least hope so.
So what I’m hearing you say here is: “If smart people believe in magic sky fairy, magic sky fairy must be logical to believe in,” which is about the level of discourse I’d expect from someone unfamiliar with the concept of critical thinking. Thanks for being an object lesson.
This is such a bad reading of the comment that I can only imagine you’re acting in bad faith. You have made the assumption that reason will inevitably lead people to the same conclusions about the world, but that is not true, and that is what the OP is bringing up. How is it that many people, when presented with the same sets of facts, and using the same reasonable principles, can come to differing conclusions? This question should keep you up at night, but instead it seems you’re only interested in saying “those other people are dumb, I am smart.”
Probably not. Atheistic fundamentalists are still fundamentalists. Their thinking is just as flawed
I mean. They’re doubling down on stupid i think it’s fair to call them out on it. In order to follow most organized religion, you are taught to kill critical thinking and have faith. It’s literally a part of the whole thing
You’re in a thread that literally is about churches not going along with homophobic takes. People keep saying “religious people should stand up against the bigots” and because they are in the example, you have bigots splitting off. And then turn around and insult the intelligence of said religious people still.
Who really is the person showing a lack of critical thinking skills? I’d argue the one whose take lacks any nuance.
No doubt the pro-hate faction considers this a win, seeing it as a purification of the church.
So be it. Let them rot in their spotless echo chambers.
I’m confused. Is the fifth the pro or the anti LGBTQ part? Probably the former though.
“I don’t think any of us want to see any of our churches leave,” he said. “We’re called to be the body of Christ, we’re called to be unified. There’s never been a time when the church has not been without conflict, but there’s been a way we’ve worked through that.”
Well, here’s the thing: you either move with the times or you get left behind. The German Catholic Church is in a similar trifle with Rome since recent years. IIRC it’s over letting women and married people be priests. Rome still follows a hardline NO on that but what they don’t get is that it’s not really up to them. This is no longer a niche opinion in Germany that you can squash from on high. The church’s stance is the niche opinion now.
Not so United I guess
So wait, are the churches that are leaving in support of the LGBTQ bans that they have? Or are they protesting them? Because the article wasn’t totally clear but it seemed like the conservatives were the ones leaving.
So it’s conservatives leaving because they can tell the winds of change are coming?
It’s a lot deeper than that.
Since the 70s, there’s been a couple lines in their Book of Discipline (central doctrine and interpretation) that say that people are to be loved, but the practice is homosexuality is “inconsistent with Christian teaching”. We progressives have been trying to take that back out but the “traditionalists” play legislative games to prevent and real debate. On the flip side, it says nothing about trans people because progressives play the same games too keep their bigoted crap out.
Back in 2019 the UMC held a special General Conference to address the issue. The traditionalists paired up with churches from Africa and a couple other places to make things worse but also created an easy way to leave the denomination. Right after, they started the GMC denomination and started leaving the UMC . IOW, they shit the bed and then moved out.
It’s really screwed up because the US congregations tend to be affirming and are shirking while the overseas congregations are more traditional but growing. They had the long term advantage. I think they just wanted to burn it all down. Think Steve Bannon and his desire to destroy the US government
As a former UMC, it’s nice to see such a large chunk of them willing to break off rather than adopt pro-hatred policies.
I still think religion is generally pretty silly, but it’s slightly less silly when it becomes a tool for enriching people’s lives instead of making them hate themselves and others.
Actually, the one’s breaking off are the conservative ones. They’re mad because the main assembly won’t enforce the homophobic rules. They’re joining a splinter denomination that’s more hardline.
