Great, everyone who lives on the occupied territories looses everything, no police ( prob in prison for or executed), no judges, lawlessness, where random militarily March in without anyone to stop em, that and if we ignore the fact that there are alot of Nazis who hate East Ukrainians and Russians, under perfect conditions the civilans just would need to get out, without anything.
And now imagne how many families would have someone in they’re familie who fought on the Russian side. ( as if you remember it was a civilwar 14-20 in the beginnng ).
“Maybe leave Ukraine“, would not stop the war it would just put civilans on the front line.
So you are saying the invasion cannot be stopped or someone with an expired passport won’t be able to renew it? Okay then, I guess there is no other option but continue then…
There’s nothing stopping Ukraine from accepting them as citizens. But that is Ukraine’s decision to make, seeing as it’s their country. And yes, if they decide that illegal settlers should be kicked out, hell, why were they there to begin with?
Are you talking about the current war, or do you mean that they were there before Russia took Crimea in 2014?
If you mean they were there after 2014, what does that matter, it was still stolen land at that time.
If they were there before 2014, I would agree that some form of a path towards citizenship should be made, but again that is Ukraine’s prerogative.
Edit: Reading your second article, that is exactly what Ukraine is proposing, expelling Russians who moved to annexed land after 2014. What about that seems unreasonable? They took a gamble and moved to a conflicted territory, maybe they were led to believe it was their right, but it doesn’t change the reality that it wasn’t.
About those who where there pre 2014.
They took up Russian citizenship.
Now they count as collaborators and traitors.
If you for example are policemen, doctor or have anything to do with the goverment, under Russian occupation you go to prison, as a traitor.
You must be a troll checking if anyone is reading the articles you linked, right? This has to be an elaborate joke, right?
Per the very article you linked:
The timeline continues ahead to July 2024, when, according to new Russian laws, residents without Russian citizenship would be considered “foreigners” or “stateless” and can be detained in detention facilities and/or deported to Russia.
If Ukraine wins. Most civilans living in Crimea and in the occupied territories, as ukraines plan decrees, have to leave the country.
If they somehow still only have the Ukrainian citizenship they are barred from any job that has any ties to the goverment.
Also anyone with a goverment position who helped, so any policemen, doctor, teacher, etc will probability be judged as a collaborator and hence a traitor.
So imagne the regular Ukrainian Army moves in. With some nationalistic hatred that exists. You will have armed men while everyone around em is an enemy, and there is no one to stop you, some people will resort to self justice. Hence the metaphor of putting civilans on the front line.
Yeah… I’m pretty sure Putin doesn’t care about those people or anyone not named Putin. He can stop attacking whenever he wants. He won’t, because that’s admitting weakness.
I imagine roughly how America ended the Vietnam war. Russia would have to initiate some willingness to stop the war with favorable conditions, and then talks could start. That’s actually right there in the articles you linked with BoJo in them.
It’d likely take nothing less than ceasefire without conditions, returning all occupied Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. And if Russia doesn’t like that, I’d love to see people start talking about historical borders again and we can joke about restoring the empire of Kiev.
And then, just like the Vietnam war, they can strut around saying they didn’t lose the war, they just agreed on favorable terms.
Edit: Actually, I may even be a bit too pessimistic here. There’s a low, but still possible chance that the tucker interview could be that message. I invite nothing less but the opportunity for Putin to publicly surrender. It would be a great thing.
Haha, right you are. It just goes to show how silly this “historic border” talk is as a justification for land grabs. Why would the argument exist for giving up Crimea if it also didn’t come with the other historic borders. Did Russia even offer their portion of historical lands? Rude lol.
I’m honestly not entirely sure what you’re getting at there, are you suggesting that they should join Russia and be a part of the federation instead of retaining their independence?
Do you mean Ukraine?
No. I would prefer a three alliance sollution, where Baltic states, poland, Ukraine, serbia, and some other countries join a military alliance. Strong enough to stand on they’re own. Wich is neutral towards NATO and Russia.
Hence there would be stratigic balance between NATO and Russia. Russia would not bee needing to fear NATO nuclear weapons on their border while NATO would have a puffer zone towards Russia. This Baltic Alliance could be the trading crossroads while also having much closer ties and stronger garantees to each other. ( there is a common fear that if one of the smaller NATO countries would be attacked that article 5 wouldnt be enacted upon due to the “insignificance“ of the smaller country. )
Additionaly if Russia or NATO tried taking their independence they could join up for an alliance with the other one.
You essentially argue that the brutal invader has to win his illegal invasion during which they bomb and kill countless civilians, because otherwise other civilians that support the illegal and brutal invasion might suffer some consequences?
You can’t be for real, noone could argue this in good faith.
civilians that support the illegal and brutal invasion might suffer some consequences?
Like who? Doctors that help the dying? So before Russia was there they had to help the local village people. After Russia came they had to tell em take a hike?
I don’t know how you can argue, in good faith that doctors, policemen, teachers, townhall workers, etc. Who just continued workig in they’re communities should be punshed.
Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in “what about…?”) is a pejorative for the strategy of responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation instead of a defense of the original accusation.
What I did not do. I told you the claim of genocide does not apply as the amount of civilian casualties is lower that other similar scaled modern wars.
Who did I accuse in my counter accusation?
As I say.
Collaborateurs will get what they have coming.
Doctors have a duty to help wounded defenders, policemen have a duty to protect citizens from invaders, teachers must not teach invaders propaganda, townhall workers must not support the logistics and infrastructure of the invader.
If you do you are a traitor and should be punished.
If you are an invader, you must die.
Und wenn du mir auf der Straße über den Weg läufst und deine Lügen und Propaganda verbreitest, wirst du sehen wie ernst ich das meine.
Putin withdrawing army from Ukraine will cause chaos instead of peaceful life - a chaos that would never happen if he continues killing people in this war.
OK. just look at real word examples of the US Afganistan withdrawal. How many civilans do you think got killed? How many deliberately? Rewatch the videos, there is enough videos of people fleeing from the approching army, ( wich noted, is supported by the majority of afganistan ) And dying in they’re attemnt. If you want that what happens in Kabul. You apperently don’t want what is good for.the civilans.
Are you kidding? You are saying the war is good for civillians.
“Let me invade your country and hold your territories and people hostage so you’ll understand that if I stop the aggression then those people will most likely die. I will proceed with my aggression and hold more of your territories and people hostage, and you’ll thank me for keeping those people safe” - Putin, probably.
Are you kidding me? Whenever Russia was forced back, torture chambers, deported children, rape and violence done to civilians and mass graves were discovered. And it was Russia that forced the russian passport onto those people. To think that Ukraine would just deport its own citizens into the hell they just were freed from is absolutely ridiculous. To think that the civilians would want to hold on to the russian passport is ridiculous.
Mass civial graves where fake. German TV stations showed clearly military graves and claimed it was civilian. I saw the bodies.
Deported children. What would you do with children in a warzone? Shitty but better then dying due to shellings.
Torture chambers? Yes just as anyone does.
Mass rapes where fake due to the Ukraine’s generals attorney not being able to find any evidence of them. ( also they then fired the Ukrainian minister for humanitarian right due to constantly making those up)
Violence was and constantly is done to civilians on the Ukraine’s side. Just look at draft videos in Ukriane.
To think that Ukraine would just deport its own citizens into the hell
JL: You’ve described Ukraine as a crime scene. The crimes are widespread and extensive. You don’t have infinite resources. So how do you focus the ICC efforts in Ukraine?
KK: You make decisions, which must be informed by many factors: the gravity, the availability of evidence and the need to work at the speed of relevance. This is exactly what we’ve done in relation to Ukraine, in relation to the public warrants, because of the admissions effectively made by individuals in the Russian Federation, particularly President Putin and Children’s Rights Commissioner Maria Alekseyevna Lvova-Belova. We investigated crimes against children and we move forward. And that’s the basic approach anywhere else: we look at the most serious crimes. When there’s more than one serious crime, we also look at the types of evidence available and start moving. And then we can go deeper, if and when necessary and if and when justified by the evidence.
Mass rapes where fake due to the Ukraine’s generals attorney not being able to find any evidence of them.
The allegation that Russia uses rape systematically couldn’t be substantiated. That is something entirely different than claiming that rapes aren’t happening.
If you would be keeping up with the news you would’ve known that, they wanted to discuss neutrality,
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60901024
but then peace negations have been stalled on the ukrainan side, per request of the Brits.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-must-not-be-pressured-into-bad-peace-deal-says-uk-pm-johnson-2022-06-07/
And after that they forbade em by law.
https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-law-declaring-talks-with-putin-impossible/
Hence, no Putin alone cannot stop the war. There is still too much pressure on all sides to keep the war going.
https://www.vox.com/world/2022/12/16/23507640/dc-party-invite-military-contractors-money-ukraine-russia-war-us
While poor guys on both sides are paying the highest price for someones wallet to be bigger.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-uncovers-mass-fraud-weapons-procurement-security-service-2024-01-27/
Wait you’re telling me that Russia can’t pull out of the invasion they started because Boris Johnson said it would be illegal?
No not illegal. But how do you imagne it would happen?
How Russia would stop the invasion they started?
Maybe leave Ukraine?
I’m not sure I’m understanding what you’re asking.
Ok and what about the people who stay there? Civilians.
https://www.politico.eu/article/in-ukraine-collaboration-cases-arent-always-clear-cut/
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/08/europe/ukraine-hunt-for-collaborators-intl/index.html
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-crimea-9da550b396f42cc267a4808bf99d5e6d
Oops your passport expired, you cannot renew it as you are currently in occupied territory. Oops you are no longer a Ukrainian citizen so move out.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/03/russia-forcing-ukrainian-passports-us-report
Great, everyone who lives on the occupied territories looses everything, no police ( prob in prison for or executed), no judges, lawlessness, where random militarily March in without anyone to stop em, that and if we ignore the fact that there are alot of Nazis who hate East Ukrainians and Russians, under perfect conditions the civilans just would need to get out, without anything.
And now imagne how many families would have someone in they’re familie who fought on the Russian side. ( as if you remember it was a civilwar 14-20 in the beginnng ).
“Maybe leave Ukraine“, would not stop the war it would just put civilans on the front line.
So you are saying the invasion cannot be stopped or someone with an expired passport won’t be able to renew it? Okay then, I guess there is no other option but continue then…
No. Expired passport means they have to take the Russian one. And if you have a Russian passport you will be forced out.
Says who exactly?
Ukraines plans with Russian citizens if they win the war.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-crimea-9da550b396f42cc267a4808bf99d5e6d
They absolutely do not have to take the russian one.
Expired passports happen all over the world. They just get renewed.
Which means they can just rip up the illegal passports they got forced upon them from soldiers from an illegal invasion.
Where? In a Ukranian Embassy? There is none on occupied territory.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/03/russia-forcing-ukrainian-passports-us-report
And Ukraine sad countless times that anyone taking these is a traitor. Even if its enforced.
Put down the crack pipe.
There’s nothing stopping Ukraine from accepting them as citizens. But that is Ukraine’s decision to make, seeing as it’s their country. And yes, if they decide that illegal settlers should be kicked out, hell, why were they there to begin with?
Because they lived there before the war.
No, there is something stopping them from accepting them as citizens. The laws Ukraine has set in place.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/03/russia-forcing-ukrainian-passports-us-report https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-crimea-9da550b396f42cc267a4808bf99d5e6d
Are you talking about the current war, or do you mean that they were there before Russia took Crimea in 2014?
If you mean they were there after 2014, what does that matter, it was still stolen land at that time.
If they were there before 2014, I would agree that some form of a path towards citizenship should be made, but again that is Ukraine’s prerogative.
Edit: Reading your second article, that is exactly what Ukraine is proposing, expelling Russians who moved to annexed land after 2014. What about that seems unreasonable? They took a gamble and moved to a conflicted territory, maybe they were led to believe it was their right, but it doesn’t change the reality that it wasn’t.
About those who where there pre 2014. They took up Russian citizenship. Now they count as collaborators and traitors. If you for example are policemen, doctor or have anything to do with the goverment, under Russian occupation you go to prison, as a traitor.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/08/europe/ukraine-hunt-for-collaborators-intl/index.html
You must be a troll checking if anyone is reading the articles you linked, right? This has to be an elaborate joke, right?
Per the very article you linked:
But thats, exactly what I ment?
Can you articulate what you’re trying to argue a little clearer?
If Ukraine wins. Most civilans living in Crimea and in the occupied territories, as ukraines plan decrees, have to leave the country. If they somehow still only have the Ukrainian citizenship they are barred from any job that has any ties to the goverment.
Also anyone with a goverment position who helped, so any policemen, doctor, teacher, etc will probability be judged as a collaborator and hence a traitor.
So imagne the regular Ukrainian Army moves in. With some nationalistic hatred that exists. You will have armed men while everyone around em is an enemy, and there is no one to stop you, some people will resort to self justice. Hence the metaphor of putting civilans on the front line.
Yeah… I’m pretty sure Putin doesn’t care about those people or anyone not named Putin. He can stop attacking whenever he wants. He won’t, because that’s admitting weakness.
OK. Tell me what would the Ukrainians do if he stopped.
You mean the citizens that putin forced to live in their illegally occupied territories?
Oh no, now they will have to go back to where they used to live, the horror!
If you have read the thread or the articles you would know that that could mean either prison, death or being forced out.
It’s okay because Boris Johnson said Putin can’t pull out.
That was a strange sentence to type.
Lol
I imagine roughly how America ended the Vietnam war. Russia would have to initiate some willingness to stop the war with favorable conditions, and then talks could start. That’s actually right there in the articles you linked with BoJo in them.
It’d likely take nothing less than ceasefire without conditions, returning all occupied Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. And if Russia doesn’t like that, I’d love to see people start talking about historical borders again and we can joke about restoring the empire of Kiev.
And then, just like the Vietnam war, they can strut around saying they didn’t lose the war, they just agreed on favorable terms.
Edit: Actually, I may even be a bit too pessimistic here. There’s a low, but still possible chance that the tucker interview could be that message. I invite nothing less but the opportunity for Putin to publicly surrender. It would be a great thing.
Here is a map 200 yrs later.
So no Crimea for Ukraine.
Haha, right you are. It just goes to show how silly this “historic border” talk is as a justification for land grabs. Why would the argument exist for giving up Crimea if it also didn’t come with the other historic borders. Did Russia even offer their portion of historical lands? Rude lol.
Well it does. Russia is a federation composed of states with they’re historic borders.
I’m honestly not entirely sure what you’re getting at there, are you suggesting that they should join Russia and be a part of the federation instead of retaining their independence?
Do you mean Ukraine? No. I would prefer a three alliance sollution, where Baltic states, poland, Ukraine, serbia, and some other countries join a military alliance. Strong enough to stand on they’re own. Wich is neutral towards NATO and Russia. Hence there would be stratigic balance between NATO and Russia. Russia would not bee needing to fear NATO nuclear weapons on their border while NATO would have a puffer zone towards Russia. This Baltic Alliance could be the trading crossroads while also having much closer ties and stronger garantees to each other. ( there is a common fear that if one of the smaller NATO countries would be attacked that article 5 wouldnt be enacted upon due to the “insignificance“ of the smaller country. )
Additionaly if Russia or NATO tried taking their independence they could join up for an alliance with the other one.
Historic borders are called like that because they are history, not current.
Well either keep those that are. Or kill more people to have em moved. Wich you like more?
He can stop the war because he can command Russian army to leave Ukraine.
OK and what about the civilans living there?
Do you know that they now have Russian citizensship and under Ukrainian Law will be either put in prisons or forced out?
This is not something that can prevent Putin from removing army from a non Russian territory. If he is not an idiot, that is.
Yes it is.
You essentially argue that the brutal invader has to win his illegal invasion during which they bomb and kill countless civilians, because otherwise other civilians that support the illegal and brutal invasion might suffer some consequences?
You can’t be for real, noone could argue this in good faith.
Countless civilian is wrong as I have shown. Compared to other modern wars its pritty tame. In Gaza already the same amout of civilians got killed that im Ukraine over the 3-4 years.
Like who? Doctors that help the dying? So before Russia was there they had to help the local village people. After Russia came they had to tell em take a hike?
I don’t know how you can argue, in good faith that doctors, policemen, teachers, townhall workers, etc. Who just continued workig in they’re communities should be punshed.
Fucking love the whataboutism on display here. They didn’t kill as many civilians as ______ so no harm, no foul.
Fuck off with that garbage take
What I did not do. I told you the claim of genocide does not apply as the amount of civilian casualties is lower that other similar scaled modern wars. Who did I accuse in my counter accusation?
As the prodigy once said.
Invaders must die.
As I say.
Collaborateurs will get what they have coming.
Doctors have a duty to help wounded defenders, policemen have a duty to protect citizens from invaders, teachers must not teach invaders propaganda, townhall workers must not support the logistics and infrastructure of the invader.
If you do you are a traitor and should be punished.
If you are an invader, you must die.
Und wenn du mir auf der Straße über den Weg läufst und deine Lügen und Propaganda verbreitest, wirst du sehen wie ernst ich das meine.
Sure grandma, now let’s get you to your bed.
OK. just look at real word examples of the US Afganistan withdrawal. How many civilans do you think got killed? How many deliberately? Rewatch the videos, there is enough videos of people fleeing from the approching army, ( wich noted, is supported by the majority of afganistan ) And dying in they’re attemnt. If you want that what happens in Kabul. You apperently don’t want what is good for.the civilans.
Are you kidding? You are saying the war is good for civillians.
“Let me invade your country and hold your territories and people hostage so you’ll understand that if I stop the aggression then those people will most likely die. I will proceed with my aggression and hold more of your territories and people hostage, and you’ll thank me for keeping those people safe” - Putin, probably.
Disgusting
“But think of the traitors!”
Nice. Establish some traitor purges next. But nice try Stalin, go kil some people you disagree with somewhere else.
Are you kidding me? Whenever Russia was forced back, torture chambers, deported children, rape and violence done to civilians and mass graves were discovered. And it was Russia that forced the russian passport onto those people. To think that Ukraine would just deport its own citizens into the hell they just were freed from is absolutely ridiculous. To think that the civilians would want to hold on to the russian passport is ridiculous.
Mass civial graves where fake. German TV stations showed clearly military graves and claimed it was civilian. I saw the bodies.
Deported children. What would you do with children in a warzone? Shitty but better then dying due to shellings.
Torture chambers? Yes just as anyone does.
Mass rapes where fake due to the Ukraine’s generals attorney not being able to find any evidence of them. ( also they then fired the Ukrainian minister for humanitarian right due to constantly making those up)
Violence was and constantly is done to civilians on the Ukraine’s side. Just look at draft videos in Ukriane.
I don’t think it I souced it.
The UN, as useless as it is, has released a report on the warcrimes committed by Russia.
Wer der BILD glaubt, hat von Anfang an verloren.
The ICC has taken on a lawsuit against Russia for child trafficking. Fun fact, the admission from the Russian side makes this easiest case to proceed, as per the lead ICC prosecutor:
Here is the sourced Wikiledia article for Russian torture chambers. There is no article describing Ukrainian torture chambers. I wonder why that is? /s
The allegation that Russia uses rape systematically couldn’t be substantiated. That is something entirely different than claiming that rapes aren’t happening.
Here is just one article of many, interviewing victims.
Do we want to compare draft videos now? Ok, here is my entry:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1855307/russian-conscripts-stripped-ukraine-war-latest
You ask them if they want to keep their russian citizenship or throw it on the pile of burning illegal passports.
Then they don’t have any left. Because Ukraine aint giving them the Ukrainian.
You can’t be serious.
deleted by creator
Thanks. I do hope it’s me and not the world.
*it’s
Bad news for ya, champ