I don’t think this is EEE, I think this is a chance for meta to dominate the narrative by drowning us out with algorithmically curated censorship, distractions, hatred, outrage etc. I would join threads if I want threads, I would be on Reddit if I want corporate influence.
The mastodon post for the same server admins admitting to allow Meta thanks @BrikoX and @Melco
Thanks lunar for articulating my central point better than I could.
Most of my primary content was within the comment section scattered so I’ll try to put it up here and edit more as i go. I was worried I’d butcher things so I avoided updating my post. Ignore the mess
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EEE - I don’t want to talk specifically about this. Many others are, and you can talk with them about it.
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Privacy - My views on privacy is that lemmy is already fully public and facebook merging into it probably wont reduce your lemmy privacy in any meaningful way. Ignoring lemmy, your privacy is already fully breached in ways I’m not going to explain here.
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People keep making blind claims that facebook/meta can’t use their algorithms to interact with us, so i will explain. For the record I know most of this effects mastodon directly, and not so much lemmy.
Threads will be able to control what gets minimised and maximised based on whatever secret algorithms they use. These end results are known to people that want to know, it’s how our parents and grandparents, became increasingly detached from reality. If facebook/meta wants to censor their users, they will, if they want to promote hate against LGBTQs then they will. Those users will then interact with our users, slowly shifting our conversations and the overall culture of lemmy into the same cesspool that is facebook.
Secondly, the content of threads will be selected by a relatively massive userbase which will drown out our content if we stay federated. Of course that content will be optimised by their algorithm, thus influencing fediverse content.
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Now onto the principle matter. FACEBOOK IS EVIL, like genocidal evil, a propaganda arm of the empire evil. They have a heavily proven track record. “Wait and see”? There is no need to ignore facebook/metas criminal record.
The admins here should have clearly stated their intent but have been deafeningly silent. People are asking for clarification or in my case, acting because of a clear lack of action.
Other posts are talking about this and I will assume you have been reading them.
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pjhenry is a troll that ignores what people actually say, he focuses on his intentional misunderstandings and straw-men, just stop feeding the troll guys, he only wants to fight over nothing. He only acts in bad faith.
Thank you for pointing out that this is so much worse than just EEE. Meta has a long history of social and political engineering, and deliberately creating a toxic environment that turned all of our parents and grandparents into deranged conspiracy theorists. They don’t just let hate thrive on their platform, they artificially inflate it in the name of engagement and profit.
I see no reason to assume they won’t do all of this again, and should they do it all again it’s going to impact the entire Fediverse. Even if you just stick to instances that block Meta, if you’re federating with instances that aren’t, the toxic environment Meta is likely to build will come back to you. If the majority of instances fail to block them, I can’t bear to stay here and watch what has become the internet’s most healthy and vibrant community rot from the inside.
I honestly don’t understand why this is even a debate. If even a fraction of the shit meta has pulled was done by a smaller Fediverse instance, we all wouldn’t hesitate to defederate from them.
And to those of you who justify Threads because Meta is somehow the lesser of two evils compared to Twitter, please remember that while Twitter is owned by a raging and incompetent manchild, Meta has eroded democracies and played a major role in a genocide. Don’t fucking support these murderers. Meta is more than happy to spread even more hatred and killing in the world if it boosts their profits.
I’m gonna need to see an argument on how Threads’ toxicity will reach places that are at least once removed. You can’t just use it as evidence when it’s not even clear it would happen. It’s like saying this community is already tainted because there are folks who also have Instagram accounts. If it’s not via people spreading the toxicity, I’m all ears to hear your reasoning. Cause it’s far from just being obvious.
What are you even arguing anyway? You’re saying defederating Threads isn’t even enough. There’s no sign they’ll even federate beyond platforms of similar concept (micro logging as opposed to link sharing/exchange).
Are you just saying by simply existing, if everyone doesn’t defederate them, the fediverse dies?
Your reply is a perfect example of how threads actions are causing toxicity in lemmy.world.
edit: Id just like to point out that at no point does he respond about meta being evil and unworthy to associate with, which is the important part he should be talking about.
I’d argue your attacking of other people shows that Threads isn’t the reason behind people being toxic. Folks like you simply exist.
This grand standing and these purity tests about threads are sickening.
Man… I just got here.
I’m getting sick of these “time to leave” posts about people wanting to jump ship on each sites decision. Beehaw decided they only want peaceful severs, time to leave. Lemmy.ml was founded by communists, time to leave! Lemmy.world doesn’t instantly defederate from other instances, time to leave!
You can’t just continually shuffle the community from site it site.
I agree with you. We should not kill them for not defederating immediatelly
While a entire community can’t convince itself to leave, the beauty of the fediverse is if you as a user want to leave it’s very easy to switch instances and get access to most of the same info you want.
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I certainly post and read. I’m happy with my instance currently, but should lemmy.one does something I don’t agree with I will have no problem switching.
People are so weird. Their online presence means so much to so many. I want to reply to all of them, just switch instances. As important as they feel, nobody is going to bat an eye when they move, yet they feel that they are really losing something if they do.
I’m glad someone realizes it. Online presence is something you want to be worthless. If people see worth in that can lead to a set of problems you don’t want.
We want to prevent enshittification. Not encourage it.
I think it’s absurd to give Meta the shadow of a benefit of the doubt. in the past, they have explicitly stated their intention to make facebook the internet. If zuck had his way, there would be exactly one website, a monolith collecting your data to more efficiently serve you ads. There is no world in which their participation in the fediverse is not self serving and a net loss for the rest of us.
Not saying meta isn’t evil…. but the whole point of the fediverse is that anyone can start a server. Meta isn’t going to be able to track you any better just thru federation, anyone can already scrape the data. People are too quick to defederate everything
you are replying to the wrong thread, try reading my post. See how I don’t care about your arguments(I care about your comments, just not the arguments themselves) and only care they they will control the narrative.
No meant to post here… I see you didn’t call it out but privacy is a big reason people are worried about threads. Just posting my opinion. Feeds and algorithms can be adjusted if threads is drowning others out. I don’t know how good or bad threads will be for the fediverse but I don’t think you do either. I’m fine with servers taking a wait and see approach and with servers banning. I’m worried about people being very reactionary and servers banning other servers that take a wait and see approach. That is the thing imo that could really kill the fediverse
Where is the indication that lemmy.world have “bent the knee”?
The fact that you ask that is exactly what i mean.
edit: The deafening silence is what i was referring to here, my post has an update about what i mean further. I should have fully explained at the time but was going into “answer everyone” overload and cheaped out.
So the argument for them bending the knee is that someone on a different instance disagrees with you?
I just read the post you linked in the op. I was against federating then changed my mind after reading the post. Their reasoning makes sense, there is no benefit from detaching now but it’s good to be cautiously optimistic with no issue with federating if there’s potential harm.
They are pushing for a system to keep threads in check, which is what is needed
it’s good to be cautiously optimistic
I vaguely remember a quote about nazis at a table.
edit: i’m implying that this instance is complicit, nothing about you personally.
Also, i totally agree with upgrading lemmy itself.
Cautiously optimistic means making sure you’re actually seeing if folks are Nazis before calling them Nazis. They’re saying let’s sit at the table and leave the table if we see Nazis.
You again have provided zero arguments as to why a wait and see approach causes any problem. If the defederate a week after Threads launches ActivityPub, what horrors would have occurred that can’t be undone? And if it’s as bad as you suggest, it’d likely be only hours after launch.
You even admitting to not reading the post when you said this. The link you added leads to a post that you then admitted to not reading til later. They haven’t bent a knee. You’re just overreacting. You’ve provided no evidence other than just “look at their history” or vague claims similar to that. Other times you just insult the person providing an actual argument. You’re a bad faith actor. You’re toxic. Are you sure you don’t belong on Threads?
In response to your update about the algorithm, I highly suggest reading how ActivityPub publishes posts. This won’t be as much of a concern as you think. It’d require breaking the spec entirely. It would literally not be compatible with other instances if they had a real-time algorithm like that. The only thing it can truly effect is if you browse Threads directly. Even then, there are certain standards it has to follow if it wants to be compatible. More than likely, you will get a “diminished” Threads experience (ie: you will not see any “benefit” of any Threads specific functionality). They already stated if you apply Thread specific privacy controls, it simply won’t be posted to the federated feed. It’s important to realize their actual feed will not be the same as the federated feed. I do not think Meta wants to capitalize on the fediverse. I think they’re doing it as an inexpensive option to be available in the EU without having to interoperate with direct for-profit competitors.
Again, some folks won’t be sold on the mess federating with Threads will look like. Let it play out and if you are correct, they will defederate very quickly and there won’t be any lasting harm. Meta will gain nothing. You will have stressed and lost years off your life for worrying so much.
Just drink some tea and watch the sunset or something.
Is there any way how to move account into another instance? Basically so I don’t lose posts.
I myself am interested what lemmy.world’s admins will do. Now they get a lot of criticism for not doing anything but so far I wouldn’t blame them that much.
PS: I would probably still defederate if it was my decision
You would have to make a new account. Not sure how i feel about not having account migration. It’s got its good and bad points. Sad to make a second account though.
I was going to switch from lemmy.world to lemmy.ml but disappointed that I’d be losing all my comment & post history. Not to mention you have to re-subscribe to all your communities again.
It’s all getting a bit Judean People’s Front around here. I know there’s a generally leftist userbase, but do we have to do this?
That’s less about defederating with Meta. Meta are the Romans. It’s about people defederating with anyone who federates with Meta.
I’m not surprised, but disappointed. And I’m even tired to talk about it. It’s just so fucking dumb.
Do the fosstodon people have a Lemmy instance?
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Is there any way to move a community? I created !vans@lemmy.world but I will not be hosting this community on this instance if it federates with Threads. Also going to stop donating to Lemmy.world if this is the route they will take.
Aaaaand the argument is moot.
https://fortune.com/2023/07/06/mark-zuckerberg-replacing-metaverse-with-twitter-killer-threads-fediverse/ (may be paywalled, it worked for me once, but visiting again it was blocked)
Threads isn’t going to be one instance. Threads is gonna be like Kbin or Lemmy. Users can set up their own instances. So you can’t simply defederate from Threads as a whole. I’m sure there will be some primary instances one can defederate from, but this preemptive motion to do so seems misguided and may not even be possible as we don’t truly know what the domain will end up being.
What are you talking about?
mastodon.world, owned by the same people as lemmy.world, is not immediately defederating with threads.
How long does it take to make an announcement for the most important and simple decision one can make? The thing is, they announced quietly that they are allowing federation with threads. Interacting with threads goes against the spirit of us leaving the corporate cesspool of reddit and doesn’t even need a discussion.
Stop being entitled and speaking for other people. The fact a discussion is occurring means it needs a discussion. You aren’t some big brained person who just knows better than anyone else. It’s clear folks disagree with you. This means your objective stance of truth is objectively wrong. It’s simply subjective opinion. So is mine. But stop providing no actual formal logic behind your claims. If you think your doing that, then I suggest actually taking a formal logic course when you reach college.
and doesn’t even need a discussion.
The assumption that anti-corporate is the unanimous opinion of everyone here is false. I have and use apps from Meta. This is a topic that very much needs discussion.
I for one would appreciate federation with Meta. We can always defederate if Meta actually does something objectionable. But I see no reason to defederate before we actually know what federation with Meta looks like.
I agree in spirit, but Meta is a known bad actor and wrecking ball that ran actual psyops against its own users and their networks just to see if they could make people depressed. They also engage in extensive, worldwide election interference to upend democracies. They don’t get the benefit of the doubt anymore.
This article lays out all the problems with the wait and see approach. We’ve been here before, unfortunately, and it only has a happy ending for the huge corporations looking to end us.
Edit: for those looking to get away from Mastodon’s main instances, give Fosstodon a look. Meta approached its admin with NDAs just like they did with Ruud, but refused it and published the email for openness. Here it is, by the way.
Federating would do more than defederating. The whole argument is that if they stop federating, they’ll destroy the fediverse. People will leave activitypub-native instances to go to threads instead because they can’t see Threads.
It’s actually more important to show people a better way. Granted, if it’s toxic, and we just defederate anyway, then it’s already not a threat that most of the fediverse would change sides.
The EEE approach is not about whether any particular instance federates or not. Threads would need to create enough value to even make people want to care about them breaking protocol. And more to the point, we are a different culture than back then.
The only threat would be if you’re worried Threads would provide substantially better content than here. It’d need to be good enough that a threat of them defederating others is more dangerous. If people made that argument, maybe I could see their point. But so far, I think the bigger threat is the content itself being toxic and garbage. I say let Threads mature a bit and let’s see where it stands if and when they do federate (and if we even have to worry about seeing it on Lemmy or Kbin).
And let’s be honest, Google didn’t kill XMPP just out of EEE. They did so by simply making such a monolithic platform that “everyone” had an account already so why create a separate account for messaging by itself. Pretending Google Talk existed in a vacuum is deceptive at best and objectively wrong at worst. I have a Google account and it’s causing me such agonizing pain that it’s taking me so long to extract myself out of it. It’ll likely take me months or even years to fully remove myself and that’s not even counting that I then need to migrate out of Microsoft too.
We can always defederate if Meta actually does something objectionable. But I see no reason to defederate before we actually know what federation with Meta looks like.
I don’t hate corporations out of principle like the other guy, but there’s no way this is gonna turn out well for the Fediverse. That’s just not how Meta does things.
Agree, honestly, if people haven’t figured out that mega-corporations can and will find a way to ruin a free space, you haven’t been on Earth very long.
This stance doesn’t affect the argument though. They’re joining that space regardless of whether they defederate now or later.
You do realise the average person here now is from exiting reddit because they did bog standard corporate things? If they aren’t aware they dislike the corporate part of reddit and like the lemmy part then… well…
The “average” person does not even know what an API is or cares. I doubt they even know what’s going on. You sure do like to make grand sweeping statements that have no basis in fact.
Never said a thing about APIs… you shouldn’t make such grand sweeping statements.
As for the average person here, plenty of statistics say that corporate reddit shenanigans and the influx of users happened at the same time, this is simple fact. They got booted off, or chose to come here because of the corporate side of reddit. This is about as simple as simple can be Aldursil. Are you a bot? or just… ya know
Wow, now insulting. The last thing people do when they run out of ideas. Welcome to my block list.
I’d like to disagree with OP, but a lot of us did join after Reddit fucked up.
“you shouldn’t make grand sweeping statements”
Ok. You’re just a troll now aren’t you. Those are the only statements you’ve been making.
