Odd that you would focus on testosterone levels instead of muscle mass. It’s certainly true that trans women have testosterone levels comparable with cis women, and also true that they would lose some amount of muscle mass due to that. However, they still retain more muscle than a cis woman would have, in general.
Ah, because testosterone levels hugely influence muscle mass and resultant strength and performance. The longest study on the matter actually ended up with trans women having on average LESS muscle strength than cis women.
I suspect that this study should be repeated on the athlete subpopulations, because I imagine many trans women are actively trying to not be muscular in order to aid transitioning, which is a different goal from those participating in athletics.
How do you try “not to be muscular”? Either your T is below a certain level or it isn’t, which can and is measured as part of any transition and HRT Regimen
But following that logic trans women would get the exact same benefits from working out as cis women, due to them having the same or even lower T levels? I’m trying to understand your logic here
I was saying that the study might not extrapolate to athletes because the trans women in the study have more reason to avoid working out than the cis women, so the actual participants may already reflect a difference in incentives to work out.
If you compare a population that is less inclined to bulk up to a control population, which population would you expect to be stronger? Do those results extrapolate to when both populations have the same incentive to bulk up?
Yeah I get what you said, I don’t understand your point though, the main advantage men have in terms of muscle mass comes from their T levels, trans women have the same if not lower T levels than cis women, so why would they have more muscle mass? Again the one study we do have shows that they have LESS
YeSS it would be nice if we had more studies in regards to this stuff I don’t disagree, there is a shocking lack of actual evidence and scientific study when it comes to hormone therapy and everything, but the couple pieces of evidence we DO have show that there isn’t a difference. Trans women have been allowed to compete in women’s Olympics since the 2000’s why haven’t they dominated the category? Cause it doesn’t make a difference, or at least the differences are so minimal that in practice they might as well not exist
the main advantage men have in terms of muscle mass comes from their T levels
Can you explain what you mean by this, specifically what the advantage you’re referring to is?
The conversation might be moot - the study concludes that trans women exhibited stronger grip strength than cis women, however when you divide that by the weight of skeletal + muscle, that result is what’s lower than cis men and women.
I don’t really know how to apply that knowledge to considering theoretical advantages in sports, even if both populations were athletes. There are some where the stronger grip strength suggests there’s an advantage, and there are some where the “density” of that strength matters more. The study (only 8 participants, no longitudal aspect whatsoever) just doesn’t seem to be the most fitting piece of evidence for what’s being discussed.
…bloodthirst?? Because somebody disagreed with you? How about you calm down instead of being such an extremist. And no, your single study with like 8 people in each group is not more convincing than all of the other studies that you’re deliberately choosing to ignore.
How about you listen to trans women rather than tell someone to “calm down” when addressing one of the main transphobic talking points? And doing so with a ton of evidence and personal experience? Asshole.
I am not the person who said bloodthirsty, but this whole thread is pretty intense. If you’re not trans maybe it’s hard to see, but people get disproportionately worked up about this topic when they otherwise don’t give a shit about women’s sports, and most female athletes aren’t worried about it. It’s cringe that people are so invested in kicking trans women out of sports.
No I just have bad grammar lol why does everyone on this website think people are making second accounts, it’s happened so many times and I’ve only been here a couple days
I really don’t know enough about who has when an advantage, but when that whole drama broke out about that swimmer who won by a landslide that used to be a man, i was browsing some trans/lgbtq boards. Most of them said that it’s more than fair, because men have denser bones and a lot of convincing arguments for her. But then it had me thinking, why are men so dominant in swinning then? (I assume they are, i think professional sports are pretty pointless and shit)
With all that being said, i feel like if you go through a sex change, which should he the most important and dearest thing one could ever do, maybe it’s time to just drop a silly sport for it. Because one of these things is surely more important than the other.
Before HRT, she was a top ranked men’s swimmer. After hrt, on the men’s, she dropped into the 400s. When she had been on HRT long enough to compete as a woman, she was a top ranked women’s swimmer, but was still beaten by several cis women. What’s the issue, exactly?
I can’t parse this sentence as written. I predict that you actually meant, “Who are we talking about?”, and to answer that, Lia Thomas, the trans swimmer who the right focused on as their primary hate figure with respect to their campaign against trans people being allowed to exist.
When you transition, you often lose everything. Family, friends, work, support networks. You name it, every single one of them is impacted, even if they’re not lost completely.
It’s not a “silly sport” it’s community, which can be life saving if you’ve lost most of the rest of it…
Incidentally also, Lia Thomas set a school record. Not a state record, not a national record, not a world record. Her performance just was not that out of line than one would expect from any other woman.
Odd that you would focus on testosterone levels instead of muscle mass. It’s certainly true that trans women have testosterone levels comparable with cis women, and also true that they would lose some amount of muscle mass due to that. However, they still retain more muscle than a cis woman would have, in general.
I think it’s legitimate to ask if that’s fair.
Ah, because testosterone levels hugely influence muscle mass and resultant strength and performance. The longest study on the matter actually ended up with trans women having on average LESS muscle strength than cis women.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8090355/
I don’t actually give a single shit about sports btw.
But this is a good example, this issue brings out the inherent bloodthirst many cis have towards trans people.
I suspect that this study should be repeated on the athlete subpopulations, because I imagine many trans women are actively trying to not be muscular in order to aid transitioning, which is a different goal from those participating in athletics.
How do you try “not to be muscular”? Either your T is below a certain level or it isn’t, which can and is measured as part of any transition and HRT Regimen
I figured not working out results in less muscle mass, and as an athlete you’d typically want to work out.
But following that logic trans women would get the exact same benefits from working out as cis women, due to them having the same or even lower T levels? I’m trying to understand your logic here
I was saying that the study might not extrapolate to athletes because the trans women in the study have more reason to avoid working out than the cis women, so the actual participants may already reflect a difference in incentives to work out.
If you compare a population that is less inclined to bulk up to a control population, which population would you expect to be stronger? Do those results extrapolate to when both populations have the same incentive to bulk up?
Yeah I get what you said, I don’t understand your point though, the main advantage men have in terms of muscle mass comes from their T levels, trans women have the same if not lower T levels than cis women, so why would they have more muscle mass? Again the one study we do have shows that they have LESS
YeSS it would be nice if we had more studies in regards to this stuff I don’t disagree, there is a shocking lack of actual evidence and scientific study when it comes to hormone therapy and everything, but the couple pieces of evidence we DO have show that there isn’t a difference. Trans women have been allowed to compete in women’s Olympics since the 2000’s why haven’t they dominated the category? Cause it doesn’t make a difference, or at least the differences are so minimal that in practice they might as well not exist
Can you explain what you mean by this, specifically what the advantage you’re referring to is?
The conversation might be moot - the study concludes that trans women exhibited stronger grip strength than cis women, however when you divide that by the weight of skeletal + muscle, that result is what’s lower than cis men and women.
I don’t really know how to apply that knowledge to considering theoretical advantages in sports, even if both populations were athletes. There are some where the stronger grip strength suggests there’s an advantage, and there are some where the “density” of that strength matters more. The study (only 8 participants, no longitudal aspect whatsoever) just doesn’t seem to be the most fitting piece of evidence for what’s being discussed.
…bloodthirst?? Because somebody disagreed with you? How about you calm down instead of being such an extremist. And no, your single study with like 8 people in each group is not more convincing than all of the other studies that you’re deliberately choosing to ignore.
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How about you listen to trans women rather than tell someone to “calm down” when addressing one of the main transphobic talking points? And doing so with a ton of evidence and personal experience? Asshole.
Real talk though what was bloodthirsty about that comment?
I am not the person who said bloodthirsty, but this whole thread is pretty intense. If you’re not trans maybe it’s hard to see, but people get disproportionately worked up about this topic when they otherwise don’t give a shit about women’s sports, and most female athletes aren’t worried about it. It’s cringe that people are so invested in kicking trans women out of sports.
Calm down. And no, there has not been a “ton” of evidence. So far I’ve seen a grand total of one actual study, and it’s a very small one.
Telling someone to calm down twice is like the definition of trolling lmao
Are you admitting that you’re the same person on two accounts? That’s really pathetic you know. Can’t your ideas stand on their own?
No I just have bad grammar lol why does everyone on this website think people are making second accounts, it’s happened so many times and I’ve only been here a couple days
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Learn to read.
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I really don’t know enough about who has when an advantage, but when that whole drama broke out about that swimmer who won by a landslide that used to be a man, i was browsing some trans/lgbtq boards. Most of them said that it’s more than fair, because men have denser bones and a lot of convincing arguments for her. But then it had me thinking, why are men so dominant in swinning then? (I assume they are, i think professional sports are pretty pointless and shit)
With all that being said, i feel like if you go through a sex change, which should he the most important and dearest thing one could ever do, maybe it’s time to just drop a silly sport for it. Because one of these things is surely more important than the other.
Before HRT, she was a top ranked men’s swimmer. After hrt, on the men’s, she dropped into the 400s. When she had been on HRT long enough to compete as a woman, she was a top ranked women’s swimmer, but was still beaten by several cis women. What’s the issue, exactly?
There isn’t one and they know it.
HowWho are we talking about?Edit: autocorrect
I can’t parse this sentence as written. I predict that you actually meant, “Who are we talking about?”, and to answer that, Lia Thomas, the trans swimmer who the right focused on as their primary hate figure with respect to their campaign against trans people being allowed to exist.
Thank you. I’ve corrected my question, and yes, I meant “who.”
Man, the right sucks.
When you transition, you often lose everything. Family, friends, work, support networks. You name it, every single one of them is impacted, even if they’re not lost completely.
It’s not a “silly sport” it’s community, which can be life saving if you’ve lost most of the rest of it…
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Ah the classic “fight bigotry with bigotry” approach. Let me know how your hate is working out for you.
It feels great, at least
Incidentally also, Lia Thomas set a school record. Not a state record, not a national record, not a world record. Her performance just was not that out of line than one would expect from any other woman.