Don’t characterise you as someone trying to put me down?
You’re quite literally arguing to take away my rights from a position of self confessed ignorance.
And when called on it, you ignored literally everything I said to highlight how the biggest problem that needs addressing is about the way you’re being treated.
If you were here to learn, you’d be asking questions, and you’d be listening to what I, a sports playing trans woman has to say. But you’re not asking questions, you’re arguing, and volunteering to exclude folk like me, without even knowing enough to understand why, let alone the impact it has.
Trans people have no track record of consistently out performing cis people in any sport at any level. Literally every example you can think of is a misrepresentation by a media more interested in controversy than fact. Those are your facts.
If your response to that is to argue about it so as to validate the position you’ve already staked out, rather than listening, asking more questions, or simply backing off, then you know what you can do with your support. People calling themselves allies but then arguing to take away our rights hurt more than bigots ever can…
Again, you’ve acknowledged literally nothing that I’ve said, to focus on how you are the hard done by one.
You also mispresented me. I didn’t say you were worse than a bigot, I said people like you hurt more than bigots do. A bigot can’t let me down, because all they know is hate. But when the people that are meant to be allies call for you to lose rights? It hits harder than bigots do.
I could give a shit whether we would get on in real life. Us getting on should have nothing to do with your support. What I care about is that you’re arguing for exclusion of trans folk. The fact that your support relies on education from trans folk that you perceive as more reasonable simply means that your support is conditional. And conditional support isn’t really support
But some gay people think that trans people are not part of the community (TERFs, they are called?) So my support ends there.
That’s conditional support for their ideas, not for their rights.
My point wasn’t that your support for the ideas of trans folk is condition. My point was that your support for our rights is conditional, based on your own personal assessment of whether we deserve some particular rights that everyone else has…
Your inclusion ends where others are excluded. I think cis women may be excluded from a sport if some trans folks participate in it.
This is an example of what I’m talking about. “I want to exclude the super vulnerable people from sports, so that the more privileged, and less vulnerable folk don’t feel uncomfortable”.
It’s text book bigotry… You don’t mean it to be bigotry, because your position isn’t shaped from hate. But it still hurts vulnerable folk, and empowers the people who do hate us. All whilst you smile and tell us that you support us, and worst of all, genuinely believe it…
Others have done the same and provided me with study materials in this very thread, and I’ve been reading.
And yet here you are, still arguing for our exclusion… Even if you haven’t read it yet, and may change your mind in the future, the fact that you’re willing to frame exclusion of trans folk as acceptable until convinced otherwise should make you question your biases. It doubt it will, but it should…
Now, if I say “now, what if…” and then you’re like “Oh you’re still a bigot! Exclusionist!”
Leaving aside the fact I have never once call you a bigot, then yeah, I’d still call you out for this, because “what if…” is still empowering bigots who want to exclude us, based on made up scenarios.
Rather than “what if”, default to inclusion in the here and now, and worry about the “what ifs” if they ever actually appear. And point of note, most of the “what if” scenarios will never eventuate, because the whole point of most of them is as a wedge tactic, to open the door on the topic of exclusion, rather than a genuine exploration of the nuanced topic of co-existing but distinct needs for inclusion of vulnerable groups.
That’s like saying “oh beating a trans person for being trans is worse than beating a cis woman for being a cis woman, because cis women are less vulnerable!”
No… It’s saying that addressing the active exclusion of trans folk from community is more relevant than the discomfort of a more privileged group of people, whose discomfort arises from misinformation and deliberately stoked fear.
And you must concede in this hypothetical scenario, again, hypothetical, that that’s NOT fair to cis women.
Why must I concede that? At the community sports level, inclusion is more important.
At at the elite level? Unfairness can never be assessed by looking at one attribute in isolation. Trans women typically have larger frames, but reduced muscle mass to move it around. What does increased strength even mean in that scenario? At this level, the thing that matters is real world outcomes specifically in the sport in question to the extent that meaningful competition is impossible. And so far, there zero sports where this is actually an issue. Trans folk hold zero world records, very few national records, and on average, under perform compared to cis folk of their gender.
And you instead of saying “bro, no, wait, here’s what you need to know,
In my second comment to you, I said “Trans people have no track record of consistently out performing cis people in any sport at any level. Literally every example you can think of is a misrepresentation by a media more interested in controversy than fact. Those are your facts”
That’s what you need to know, and that’s what I told you.
You skimmed right over it to continue arguing with me, because you were indignant that I’d made you feel called out
you don’t help with gaining support from others who are really on the fence.
And there is that conditional support.
You are telling me that your opinion, and the opinion of others on whether we should have the same basic rights to inclusion as everyone else, is dependent on how politely I raise my points with you?
Which is to say, my rights are contingent not on the issue at hand, but on how I present myself to you?
I have no problem answering “what if” questions regarding misinformation about my own circumstances.
That’s cool for you, but you’re not trans and don’t face exclusion based on the misguided assumptions people have about you. You don’t have bigots actively generating “what if” debates to try and normalise exclusion towards you.
To you, it’s just a sometimes thing. For me, it’s an active part of a campaign driven by people trying to remove our rights, and it’s explicitly designed to sound reasonable, and be repeated innocently by people who don’t know any better.
This is all hypothetical to you. To me, it’s a tool used to hurt me and my community.
Don’t characterise you as someone trying to put me down?
You’re quite literally arguing to take away my rights from a position of self confessed ignorance.
And when called on it, you ignored literally everything I said to highlight how the biggest problem that needs addressing is about the way you’re being treated.
If you were here to learn, you’d be asking questions, and you’d be listening to what I, a sports playing trans woman has to say. But you’re not asking questions, you’re arguing, and volunteering to exclude folk like me, without even knowing enough to understand why, let alone the impact it has.
Trans people have no track record of consistently out performing cis people in any sport at any level. Literally every example you can think of is a misrepresentation by a media more interested in controversy than fact. Those are your facts.
If your response to that is to argue about it so as to validate the position you’ve already staked out, rather than listening, asking more questions, or simply backing off, then you know what you can do with your support. People calling themselves allies but then arguing to take away our rights hurt more than bigots ever can…
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Again, you’ve acknowledged literally nothing that I’ve said, to focus on how you are the hard done by one.
You also mispresented me. I didn’t say you were worse than a bigot, I said people like you hurt more than bigots do. A bigot can’t let me down, because all they know is hate. But when the people that are meant to be allies call for you to lose rights? It hits harder than bigots do.
I could give a shit whether we would get on in real life. Us getting on should have nothing to do with your support. What I care about is that you’re arguing for exclusion of trans folk. The fact that your support relies on education from trans folk that you perceive as more reasonable simply means that your support is conditional. And conditional support isn’t really support
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That’s conditional support for their ideas, not for their rights.
My point wasn’t that your support for the ideas of trans folk is condition. My point was that your support for our rights is conditional, based on your own personal assessment of whether we deserve some particular rights that everyone else has…
This is an example of what I’m talking about. “I want to exclude the super vulnerable people from sports, so that the more privileged, and less vulnerable folk don’t feel uncomfortable”.
It’s text book bigotry… You don’t mean it to be bigotry, because your position isn’t shaped from hate. But it still hurts vulnerable folk, and empowers the people who do hate us. All whilst you smile and tell us that you support us, and worst of all, genuinely believe it…
And yet here you are, still arguing for our exclusion… Even if you haven’t read it yet, and may change your mind in the future, the fact that you’re willing to frame exclusion of trans folk as acceptable until convinced otherwise should make you question your biases. It doubt it will, but it should…
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Leaving aside the fact I have never once call you a bigot, then yeah, I’d still call you out for this, because “what if…” is still empowering bigots who want to exclude us, based on made up scenarios.
Rather than “what if”, default to inclusion in the here and now, and worry about the “what ifs” if they ever actually appear. And point of note, most of the “what if” scenarios will never eventuate, because the whole point of most of them is as a wedge tactic, to open the door on the topic of exclusion, rather than a genuine exploration of the nuanced topic of co-existing but distinct needs for inclusion of vulnerable groups.
No… It’s saying that addressing the active exclusion of trans folk from community is more relevant than the discomfort of a more privileged group of people, whose discomfort arises from misinformation and deliberately stoked fear.
Why must I concede that? At the community sports level, inclusion is more important.
At at the elite level? Unfairness can never be assessed by looking at one attribute in isolation. Trans women typically have larger frames, but reduced muscle mass to move it around. What does increased strength even mean in that scenario? At this level, the thing that matters is real world outcomes specifically in the sport in question to the extent that meaningful competition is impossible. And so far, there zero sports where this is actually an issue. Trans folk hold zero world records, very few national records, and on average, under perform compared to cis folk of their gender.
In my second comment to you, I said “Trans people have no track record of consistently out performing cis people in any sport at any level. Literally every example you can think of is a misrepresentation by a media more interested in controversy than fact. Those are your facts”
That’s what you need to know, and that’s what I told you.
You skimmed right over it to continue arguing with me, because you were indignant that I’d made you feel called out
And there is that conditional support.
You are telling me that your opinion, and the opinion of others on whether we should have the same basic rights to inclusion as everyone else, is dependent on how politely I raise my points with you?
Which is to say, my rights are contingent not on the issue at hand, but on how I present myself to you?
That should make you question things…
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That’s cool for you, but you’re not trans and don’t face exclusion based on the misguided assumptions people have about you. You don’t have bigots actively generating “what if” debates to try and normalise exclusion towards you.
To you, it’s just a sometimes thing. For me, it’s an active part of a campaign driven by people trying to remove our rights, and it’s explicitly designed to sound reasonable, and be repeated innocently by people who don’t know any better.
This is all hypothetical to you. To me, it’s a tool used to hurt me and my community.