[Edited title and body to change Selfish to Doomer.]
These Doomer Nihilists are so sure the world is so completely fucked, that they just nope out of any meaningful action that might mitigate what’s coming.
Hell, they might be right. But it takes an incredibly selfish person to assume their idea of the future is absolute, to the point you just go “If I’m doomed, I’ll just let it burn with everyone inside.”
I’ve been called naive, idealistic and cliche just because I believe in the Human capacity to adapt and thrive, and our unique ability as Humans to choose what we believe. How a positive mindset will -literally- move us in a positve direction, generally speaking.
And I admit, I am verying degrees of those things… But am I wrong?
Humans became… And we’re still becoming, a collective organism as the internet spreads. It’s far from perfect, but it keeps us all connected in one way or another. That gives each and every one of us a little push and tug on the whole.
Unless you are truly isolated in your life, and my heart breaks for those who are, your positivity matters. Your negativity matters. These things spread to anyone who interacts with you, whether it’s the slightest bit or enough to get someone to see another perspective. It spreads and it matters.
I just feel like… if more people were a little more naive and idealistic, but informed, we might not be so fucked.
Face it like a Human.
[Edited slightly for clarification]
Maybe you should learn about a philosophical position before you offer your critique. Especially if you want to take a position that people should be ‘informed’.
From Wikipedia:
Existential nihilism is the position that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose, and unlikely to change in the totality of existence. The meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can create their own subjective meaning or purpose. In popular use, “nihilism” now most commonly refers to forms of existential nihilism.
That’s how I understand it. I’m genuinely asking you to educate me if I’m missing something, or if that understanding is somehow incompatible with my original post.
And this isn’t a critique of philosophy, this is a critique of a personality type. I didn’t think I’d have to include “Not all Nihilists,” but maybe I should reword the title.
The error is conflating nihilism to doomerism. The lack of intrinsic value or meaning doesn’t really have anything to do with the idea that our (personal or collective) destruction is inevitable.
To use myself as an example, I have a strong doomer tendancy, which is rooted in my misanthropy. I believe that the weaknesses of humanity undermine any strengths we have and will lead to our destruction. My nihilism tells me that the destruction of humanity by our own hubris is, in a cosmic sense, neither good or bad. The universe will keep ticking paying our disappearance as little heed as it paid our presence.
Thing is, lack of intrinsic value doesn’t mean there is no point in trying to save us. That we live in an uncaring universe means that we are our only real chance of getting out of this jam we are in. There isn’t a god to save us, there isn’t some second chance at life coming after death. Even if there is no hope in the struggle to survive, you can still struggle.
Ultimately nihilism is a question, not an answer. It is a statement of what is, and has no bearing on what one should do.
Thank you for that. I’ll concede to conflating doomerism with nihilism. My apologies.
The personality I’m referring to is the “Meh, nothing matters, I have no control, fuck it” type. That’s still a Nihilist. And those are the type that always seem to show up and “ahctshually” me when I say something positive.
Yeah, people like that are a where a big chunk of my misanthropy comes from. To pin any kind of philosophical label on them though I think is wrong. I think it is more accurate to say that they don’t engage with any. You can equally complain about their fatalism, except fatalism doesn’t preclude taking action. Even their brand of doomerism is boring.
If they really believed and understood the position they appear to take, they would likely have killed themselves already.
I would pay them the same mind you would a rock.
If there was a rock that defied my logic the way Doomer Nihilists do, I would pay very close attention to it.
Again, genuinely curious here… I assume based on your beliefs that you understand and, at least generally, adhere to the scientific method.
How can you conclude the meaninglessness of our universe when a vanishingly small number of humans have ventured out of our atmosphere, and every bit of information we have on galaxies outside of our own is at least tens of thousands of years old?
Is there any evidence on either side of the argument?
Claiming “Nothing” carries the same burden of proof as claiming “Something,” scientifically speaking.
For the record, I do consider myself spiritual, but every spiritual belief I hold has a tangible, real world counterpart. I try to see and understand the world from both perspectives.
By all means pay attention to rocks, you don’t want one to fall on you, or to trip over one. Just remember if you kick it, or try to persuade it, you will suffer and it won’t.
I’m more than happy to be moved off the position if something presents itself, so far nothing has. Nor do I reject a general spiritual position, I would even say I have had experiences best described as mystical but I don’t see that as anything separate from the mind.
That we inhabit a small corner of something so vast that we can in a very real sense never interact with most of it. That even if we could, makes no special allowances to us and would end our lives simply by its nature. Is what leads me to conclude that there is no intrinsic meaning. What would be the meaning of a star? What even would be the shape of it’s meaning?
We have no reason to think that the moon would be much different if we never were as a species never were, aside from some tyre tracks and some litter. Of course, the man in the moon, or the rabbit wouldn’t be there without humans to see them, but those are things we project onto it.
Not trying to move, just trying to understand and challenge my own worldview.
While Nihilism still doesn’t pass my logic check, I do believe that reality is subjective and relativity is universal. We all may be pulling from the same box of Lego, but none of us are building the exact same thing, and the further you go from your own, the more varied the designs become.
I can see how it could all be interpreted as meaningless relative to the Human experience, and to be fair, that’s the only one we’ve got.
I could go on, but I don’t want to push the issue further than it needs. Thanks for taking the time to politely engage with me. You’ve given me things to think about.
I hope you’re never able to understand. Depression changes not just how you feel but the ways you can feel. The people you’re frustrated with literally can’t be positive in the same way you can.
I’m certain that I won’t.
That being said… I’ve been suffering from Chronic Depression from the age of 12. I’m in my 40’s now.
I’ll spare you the life story, but after a particularly turbulent ~4 years between 2016 and 2020 (completely unrelated to politics, oddly enough given the range.), I “Woke up” and started to examine the world around me as if I was new here.
During the pandemic, I began to realize that I had to understand the division and rise of authoritarianism going on in the world right now to get over pretty severe cognitive dissonance. It led me to realizing how someone can live in their own reality bubble, and understanding how that bubble gets created.
When you can present someone a black and white fact, and they deny or evade, at a base level in their mind, it is a conscious choice. A choice between evade, deny, and accept. The part of your brain that makes that choice is essentially a root level decision maker.
By utilizing that same part of the mind purposefully and rationally, you can greatly increase your sense of autononomy.
In the context of depression…
Taking back your autonomy aside from but along with healing your depression is possible.
It seems impossible because the depression is taking so much of your mental energy, you haven’t been able to really use this part of your mind, and it has likely atrophied.
As you build it back up it will help you take more purposeful steps toward healing.
And to your last statement… Yeah… you can. I promise. Not instantly, but incrementally. It literally starts with making one decision. One decision over and over until it sticks. After that you move on to the next, and the next, and so on.
If you still think it’s impossible, ask yourself this question and be honest with the answer:
“Am I ready to heal -yet?-”
If the answer is no, nothing can help. You gotta flip that switch. -You- gotta figure that one out.
It never fully heals, and it may wax and wane, but better is possible.
[I continued with a hypothetical question over here if you’re interested: https://lemmy.world/post/14563584]
The funny thing is I don’t believe there are many living true nihilists, because if nothing truly matters they would simply do nothing and likely die.
Of course most of them don’t do that, at the very least because of bodily pain/pleasure/fear, which at best makes them a hedonist.
And if they start invoking any singular “logic” for how the world should work, like social darwinism, then they flat out don’t understand what “no meaning” means, ironically. Look up the is/ought paradox, you can’t claim the world should be anything without some arbitrary belief. Which means that the only things that truly view the world with no meaning are things that can’t or don’t intentionally act on the world, ie inanimate objects.
It just feels like a way to pester people into “opting out” of any philosophical discussion and give up on life when they themselves aren’t even committing to their “ideals”.
