Kyle Rittenhouseā€™s sister Faith is seeking $3,000 on a crowdfunding website in a bid to prevent the eviction of herself and her mother Wendy from their home, citing her ā€œbrotherā€™s unwillingness to provide or contribute to our family.ā€

  • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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    4 months ago

    Itā€™s not bear season, and a hunter doesnā€™t have a hunting license. He takes his gun and drives out to bear country, and starts walking around bear dens waiting for a mother bear to attack him, then he shoots her and claims self defense.

    Was he justified, or did he intentionally set up a scenario where the bear was likely to feel threatened and attack him, so heā€™d have an excuse to shoot her?

    • ObjectivityIncarnate@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      The fact that no one gave the slightest shit about Rittenhouseā€™s arrival or presence (regardless of the fact that he was visibly and obviously armed) until Rosenbaum freaked out on him for putting out Rosenbaumā€™s dumpster fire, makes that not really the best analogy, lol.

      He did literally nothing that merited the aggression upon him. Your argument is literally identical, logically, to ā€œshe was asking for it by being dressed so provocativelyā€.

      • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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        4 months ago

        Your argument is literally identical, logically, to ā€œshe was asking for it by being dressed so provocativelyā€.

        Itā€™s literally identical, logically, to ā€œShe dressed provocatively, but was carrying a revolver, and walked into a bad part of town waiting for someone to come onto her so she could shoot them.ā€ In which case Iā€™d be making the same argument.

        Look, I want to be clear: Iā€™m not saying he deserved to get attacked. But I also donā€™t believe for a second that he traveled that far, to a protest where any logical person could have guessed theyā€™d be seen as an aggressor, and walked around for as long as he did, and wasnā€™t hoping heā€™d draw some aggression so he could ā€œdefend himselfā€. Itā€™s unfortunate that it happened, and I do believe he was defending himself, but I also fully believe that it went down exactly like he was hoping it would.

        The fact that heā€™s been riding out his celebrity status among the far right since then, I feel, supports that theory.

        He can be ā€œnot guiltyā€ and still be a piece of shit.

        • ObjectivityIncarnate@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          ā€œShe dressed provocatively, but was carrying a revolver, and walked into a bad part of town waiting for someone to come onto her so she could shoot them.ā€ In which case Iā€™d be making the same argument.

          I like how you subtly modified the obviously implied rape attempt to ā€œcome onto herā€, lol.

          You also left out running away at the first sign of aggression, and then only shooting after sheā€™s chased down and has nowhere else to go, and the attacker, who screamed ā€œIā€™m going to kill youā€ moments before, is now trying to wrestle the gun out of her hands.

          Zero chance youā€™d be making the same argument in an actually equivalent situation, lmao, who do you think youā€™re kidding?

          • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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            4 months ago

            Man, youā€™re missing the whole point. I said it in pretty plain text before but Iā€™ll say it again: I donā€™t believe he deserved to get attacked, and I believe he was defending himself. Clearly the person who attacked him were not justified in doing so. In the analogy youā€™re quoting, clearly the person attempting to rape the woman in question would not be justified in doing so, and sheā€™d be justified in shooting him.

            What matters, though, is intent. In that hypothetical, the woman put herself into that situation intentionally hoping sheā€™d get attacked because she wanted to shoot someone. I firmly believe Rittenhouse did the exact same.

            Do you also defend Westborough Baptist Church? Remember them? Group who would protest at soldierā€™s funerals, shout some really inflammatory shit with the intent of baiting the funeral-goers to attack them, then act like innocent victims and sue their attackers? Legally, they were in the right, too, but that doesnā€™t make them any less deplorable for doing it.

            • ObjectivityIncarnate@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              What matters, though, is intent. In that hypothetical, the woman put herself into that situation intentionally hoping sheā€™d get attacked because she wanted to shoot someone. I firmly believe Rittenhouse did the exact same.

              But the point is that there is literally no reason to believe that, if youā€™re actually being objective, and looking at the facts of the matter. He cleaned graffiti off a high school, then he showed up, he handed out water bottles, gave basic medical attention on request (literally walking around yelling ā€œmedic! friendly!ā€), and put out fires. He did nothing that any reasonable, objective person would conclude contributed the slightest bit toward ā€˜hoping heā€™d get attacked because he wanted to shoot someoneā€™.

              Firstly, everything started going south because of an event nobody could have predicted: a guy who set a fire earlier had it put out by Rittenhouse, and his response to that is literal homicidal rage (?!) (later, we learned that he had literally been released from a mental health facility for a suicide attemptā€¦looking at all the evidence and in hindsight, I think itā€™s reasonable that Rosenbaum was actually trying to get himself killed in a manner similar to ā€˜murder by copā€™, but I digress).

              Secondly, if he was hoping to get attacked because he wanted to shoot someone, why didnā€™t he shoot Rosenbaum right when he started chasing him down? This was already after Rosenbaum had literally been screaming ā€œIā€™m going to kill youā€, so itā€™d be a very strong self-defense argument to put him down right there as he charged at Rittenhouse. But instead, he ran away, and continued to run away as Rosenbaum chased him. This course of action makes NO SENSE for someone who is ā€˜hoping heā€™d get attacked because he wanted to shoot someoneā€™.

              He also didnā€™t shoot when he got cornered and was no longer able to flee. At that point, Rosenbaum had not only threatened his life, but had chased him down, leaving NO question he was intending to make good on his threat. Rittenhouse could have very justifiably shot him dead then as well. But he didnā€™t.

              Rittenhouse only fired when Rosenbaum had COMPLETELY closed the distance between them, and was LITERALLY trying to wrestle the gun of someone he had just threatened to kill, out of his arms. Objectively speaking, he did everything he could to keep the situation from escalating to the point of using his weapon.

              His actions toward his other two attackers was similarā€“no aggression from him, and when he encountered aggression toward him, he didnā€™t ā€˜take advantage of the opportunity to shoot someoneā€™ā€“instead, he fled. Consistently. Every single person he shot had literally put him in a position where he had to choose to either protect his life, or forfeit it. And he never used his weapon a moment before he was in that position, all three times.

              The argument that Rittenhouse was ā€˜hoping heā€™d get attacked because she wanted to shoot someoneā€™ simply does not hold water.

              • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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                4 months ago

                First off, I want to be clear that Iā€™m not the one down-voting you; I havenā€™t voted (up or down) anywhere in this thread, but it always makes me self-conscious when Iā€™m having a disagreement with someone and the posts Iā€™m replying to consistently have 1 downvote at the time Iā€™m replying.

                • Rittenhouse was already breaking the law by having a firearm; he was 17 at the time and not legally old enough to possess one.
                • He claims he went to the protest ā€œto protect businessesā€ if I recall, which seems reasonable on the surface, except that:
                  • He was a staunch supporter of the ā€˜blue lives matterā€™ movement, a rally-attending Trump supporter, and otherwise very openly far-right leaning, andā€¦
                  • He was attending a protest populated primarily by far left-leaning individuals.
                  • Iā€™m not aware of him attending any other protests, since or prior, under this premise; if he was the good Samaritan he tries to make himself out to be, why did he choose this, and only this, protest to ā€œprotect businessesā€ at? Where was he during any non-politically-polarized national tragedy where his services could have been used?
                  • Why did he feel the need to bring a gun in the first place?
                    • You could argue that itā€™s ā€œjust in caseā€ - which may make sense, except that he drove an awfully long way to a very specific protest with a very specific population that had already become very heated. If he felt he needed a gun ā€œjust in caseā€, a reasonable conclusion could be that he expected things to go south, and chose to go anyway.
                  • He (to my knowledge) didnā€™t have any personal affiliation with any of the businesses there.
                    • This is like me going down to the local Walmart with a gun to protect it against people protesting big box stores.
                • Since the incident, heā€™s used the fact that he went to a leftist protest and shot people and was acquitted to become a bit of a far-right celebrity, and heā€™s really milked that celebrity status:
                  • His likeness has been used to sell memorabilia, including guns.
                  • Heā€™s been a guest of honor (or equivalent, Iā€™m not sure what the term is) at GOP rallies.
                  • Heā€™s got at least some kind of association with the Proud Boys (though Iā€™m not sure what the nature of that association is.)
                • If he was truly an innocent good Samaritan who was caught up in something unfortunate and regretted what happened, wouldnā€™t he be speaking out against any of this, rather than letting them hold him in high regard because of it?
                  • Heā€™s basically earned celebrity status because he shot people. And I realize itā€™s not his fault that people are doing that, but heā€™s playing right into it. Profiting off of it, even. That is not something a remorseful person does.

                The result of all of this, in my eyes, is that he went to an awful lot of trouble to put himself in a situation where I feel a reasonable person would have believed they would end up in an altercation, and he made sure he had a rifle with him at the time. I will accept that he could have used it sooner than he did, but I, as someone who actively does not want to have to shoot someone, wouldnā€™t bring a gun to a Trump rally while publicizing that I was there to keep the peace and enforce local noise ordinances. Thatā€™d just be asking to get attacked. To be put in a situation where Iā€™d need to use that gun.

                Of course, if I was going to go to that rally, and I was hoping Iā€™d have to shoot someone, Iā€™d make damn sure I made it look like I had only the best possible intentions.

                • ObjectivityIncarnate@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  Itā€™s not me, youā€™re literally the only one Iā€™m actually having some sort of actual dialogue with.

                  Rittenhouse was already breaking the law by having a firearm; he was 17 at the time and not legally old enough to possess one.

                  Not trueā€“Wisconsin state law allows minors to possess shotguns and rifles as long as theyā€™re not short-barreled.

                  He was a staunch supporter of the ā€˜blue lives matterā€™ movement, a rally-attending Trump supporter, and otherwise very openly far-right leaning, andā€¦ He was attending a protest populated primarily by far left-leaning individuals.

                  And yet, he didnā€™t do a single second of counter-protesting, nor did he act to inhibit the protesters in any wayā€“in fact, it was primarily protesters who received his handed out bottles of water and basic medical aid.

                  The only real argument you can make that he was antagonistic is if you argue that cleaning up after and putting out the fires of rioters (those not protesting, but just running around creating havoc and destruction) is antagonistic toward themā€“I guess it is, technically, butā€¦I mean, come on. No way my conscience would let me fault someone for undoing riotersā€™ damage.

                  He is on record stating he supports BLM, for what itā€™s worth.

                  Iā€™m not aware of him attending any other protests, since or prior, under this premise; if he was the good Samaritan he tries to make himself out to be, why did he choose this, and only this, protest to ā€œprotect businessesā€ at?

                  Because itā€™s his community, so it makes perfect sense heā€™s more compelled to take action in his own neighborhood. He has friends in Kenosha, his father lives there, he worked as a lifeguard there, etcā€¦ He had spent lots of time over the course of his life in that area, and had ties to it. If he had gone to one protest, and it deliberately WASNā€™T the one in Kenosha, thatā€™s what would look potentially suspicious, imo.

                  Why did he feel the need to bring a gun in the first place? You could argue that itā€™s ā€œjust in caseā€

                  Seems pretty obvious that is the reasonā€“heā€™s even on video while at the protest saying exactly that, ā€œfor my protectionā€.

                  • which may make sense, except that he drove an awfully long way

                  Not really a long way at all (20 miles), especially not unusually long for him, who had made that exact trip countless times before. This was literally his regular commute to his lifeguard job, and spending time with his father, etc.

                  a reasonable conclusion could be that he expected things to go south, and chose to go anyway.

                  And if one isnā€™t starting out trying to find fault and looks at his actions objectively in hindsight, one could easily argue that the decision to deliberately put himself at potential risk in order to undo some of the damage and maybe prevent some damage, and help people, is selflessly altruistic.

                  He (to my knowledge) didnā€™t have any personal affiliation with any of the businesses there.

                  Well, owners of the Car Source denied accepting Kyle and Dominick Blackā€™s offer to help protect their business, and one of them denied even knowing who Kyle was, and then text exchange between them, with Kyle offering to help out, surfaced, and the other owner literally had his picture taken with Kyle and the rest of his group, in front of the dealership. Kyle was obviously not randomly taking the liberty upon himself to spend time defending that place, nor was he unwanted there.

                  Since the incident, heā€™s used the fact that he went to a leftist protest and shot people and was acquitted to become a bit of a far-right celebrity,

                  All the left did was call him a white supremacist serial killer (as you can see, this continues to this day), even after all the facts came out. Itā€™s no surprise he became amicable with the only people who werenā€™t doing that. Wouldnā€™t be nearly the first time such a thing has happened, sadly.

                  Still, this is beside the pointā€“it doesnā€™t matter to me if he became, or always was, or whatever, someone with shitty views. All Iā€™m talking about is what I know about, and thatā€™s the facts of this case, and what we know (or should know, given how many people still get very basic, known facts wrong)ā€“as far as notorious legal cases go, there are few with more hard evidence easily accessible to the public, so even a ā€˜randomā€™ civilian can have 100% of the facts anyone else does.

                  I speak from a position of knowing the facts, and being frustrated that, even though the facts are so readily available, there are still so many people saying things the facts donā€™t agree with, and drawing conclusions that make zero sense in the face of said facts.

                  Thatā€™s all there is to it.

                  • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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                    4 months ago

                    Not trueā€“Wisconsin state law allows minors to possess shotguns and rifles as long as theyā€™re not short-barreled.

                    Maybe Iā€™m mis-remembering the details of the case, as this isnā€™t really something Iā€™ve paid much attention to in the past, I donā€™t know, 3 years, but Iā€™m fairly certain the person who obtained the gun for him was charged and convicted with some crime; is it a crime to give a gun to a minor but not for the minor to possess one? That doesnā€™t make a lot of sense. Is it that itā€™s illegal in Illinois to possess one, but not in Wisconsin? My understanding was that the gun charges against Rittenhouse were dismissed basically on a technicality using language that was written to apply to hunting rifles and was being applied to a rifle clearly not intended for that purpose. Maybe thatā€™s the short-barreled clause? Iā€™m not sure of the specifics.

                    Seems pretty obvious that is the reasonā€“heā€™s even on video while at the protest saying exactly that, ā€œfor my protectionā€.

                    And if one isnā€™t starting out trying to find fault and looks at his actions objectively in hindsight, one could easily argue that the decision to deliberately put himself at potential risk in order to undo some of the damage and maybe prevent some damage, and help people, is selflessly altruistic.

                    I donā€™t know what the local culture is like in Wisconsin, so some of my view might stem from trying to view it through the lens of my local community, but I know I, for one, am immediately on edge when I see someone walking around open-carrying a firearm in a public place. It doesnā€™t happen frequently, so maybe thatā€™s part of it, but if I attended a protest or demonstration, particularly one that the police are antagonistic to, anyone - no matter what theyā€™re doing - who is carrying a gun like that is, in my mind, making the situation worse just by their presence. If theyā€™re a protester themselves, theyā€™re just inviting police violence and if theyā€™re not a protester, my perception would be that theyā€™re doing it with the intent to intimidate. Maybe thatā€™s an incorrect perception and I am willing to accept that, but I canā€™t imagine that there werenā€™t plenty of people there who share that perception.

                    What it really comes down to (again, in my mind) is that his decision to go there, into the middle of what was already basically a powder keg, carrying an AR-15 was, at the very least, incredibly poor judgement. Even if 90% of protesters saw him as helpful, all itā€™d take is one who didnā€™t to cause a problem.

                    There were people at these protests (speaking nationwide, I canā€™t speak to the one in Kenosha specifically) who were there just to cause trouble - looting, vandalizing, trying to paint the peaceful protesters in a poor light.

                    Not really a long way at all (20 miles),

                    Maybe ā€˜a long wayā€™ was poor wording but the point I was trying to get at is that he doesnā€™t live there; itā€™s not like this was happening in his town.

                    Well, owners of the Car Source denied accepting Kyle and Dominick Blackā€™s offer to help protect their business, and one of them denied even knowing who Kyle was, and then text exchange between them, with Kyle offering to help out, surfaced, and the other owner literally had his picture taken with Kyle and the rest of his group, in front of the dealership. Kyle was obviously not randomly taking the liberty upon himself to spend time defending that place, nor was he unwanted there.

                    I was only aware of the first part of this - that they denied knowing or wanting him there, so if the rest of this is true, I will concede this point.

                    Still, this is beside the pointā€“it doesnā€™t matter to me if he became, or always was, or whatever, someone with shitty views.

                    Itā€™s relevant (to me) because he holds views (and did before the protest, as far as I recall) that put him at odds with a lot of the protesters there. Iā€™m not calling him a white supremacist (nor am I calling him not a white supremacist, I really donā€™t know what his views are on that topic, nor do I really care), and Iā€™m certainly not calling him a serial killer. I think itā€™s pretty clear from the trial that he isnā€™t legally guilty. However, I do think heā€™s morally guilty because he put himself in a situation where, in my view, a reasonable person should have been able to foresee that something like this might happen. Then, afterwards, rather than condemning the glorification of it, he just went along with it, hook, line and sinker.

                    Honestly, if it hadnā€™t been for that last bit, Iā€™d probably hold a different view, andā€¦

                    All the left did was call him a white supremacist serial killer (as you can see, this continues to this day), even after all the facts came out. Itā€™s no surprise he became amicable with the only people who werenā€™t doing that.

                    Maybe youā€™re right, and heā€™s a product of the circumstances, but he didnā€™t, and doesnā€™t (based on his behavior after the fact) seem particularly remorseful for what happened there. Heā€™s going along with (at the very least) the glorification of his actions, and I cannot see him as anything but in the wrong as a result.

                    I will say that you make some compelling points and maybe my initial stance was too severe - that is to say, maybe he wasnā€™t literally looking for trouble, but he certainly wasnā€™t taking what I see as some very basic steps to avoid trouble.

                    All Iā€™m talking about is what I know about, and thatā€™s the facts of this case, and what we know (or should know, given how many people still get very basic, known facts wrong)ā€“as far as notorious legal cases go, there are few with more hard evidence easily accessible to the public, so even a ā€˜randomā€™ civilian can have 100% of the facts anyone else does.

                    The basic facts of the case were pretty widely misrepresented, by news outlets, never mind keyboard warriors on Twitter and Reddit; I donā€™t think itā€™s surprising at all that everyoneā€™s perception of the details differ so greatly. The ACLU made a statement basically condemning him post-verdict, for one, and that was pretty widely reported on.