I was referring to the big-picture point he made in the whole last 11 minutes of the video.
I am aware that isn’t the focus that you had in mind, but it was one of the bigger reactions I had to it. My overall view is that he is deeply out of touch and incapable of using anything other than a strawman argument. He fundamentally does not understand what he is criticizing.
It’s not as if people are rejecting Christ and converting to Judaism.
That’s not what “The decline in chrstianity” describes.
Rather it’s a secular movement driven by Satan’s success at convincing a vast swath of the populace that God is imaginary.
That’s just not happening.
Western civilization is Christiandom.
No it’s not. Western civ is a pretty arbitrary phrase that is used in a million different ways, and christianity is only a subset of that. Words and phrases change over time, and this is one of those things that has changed.
the project of undermining Western civilization.
There is no such project, at least how I define western civilization.
I’m not sure exactly what points you’re referring to here. Skimming through it, I’m pretty sure I already know all of these details.
If you’re aware of all the details then you should also be aware that the enlightment (a huge part of western civilization) was the birth of science, the scientific method, and secularism. Meaning christendom != western civ.
It is the height of hubris to criticize God. His wisdom is infinite
I am criticizing a fictional, human made character. As a result of being human made, there is no such infinite wisdom.
if yours was too then you’d understand why certain children are given cancer.
There is no good reason.
It’s not for us to try to understand. It’s for us to accept in our worship and prayer.
How have you determined that you aren’t worshiping an evil god if you haven’t questioned god? How do you know that it isn’t the case that both god and satan are evil?
You have demons whispering lies into your ears, and you believe them unquestioningly.
Nobody is whispering anything in my ears, metephorically or literally, whichever way you mean. And I question everything before I believe it.
Comparing Zeus to God is far worse than apples and oranges, because at least apples and oranges are both fruits. It’s like comparing icebergs to smartphones. They have absolutely nothing whatsoever in common, to the point that it’s nonsensical to even try to compare them.
Both Yahweh and Zeus are fictional characters which people irrationally use to explain why things work. That was the basis for my comparison and therefore makes it a valid comparison.
And then people start to deny that you exist because they have the theory of how the basketball goes through the basket. The whole idea is absolutely ridiculous.
That’s not really how that works.
it’s self-evidently true, as anyone who denies God cannot be said to be very intelligent.
scientific disciplines are certainly attractive to atheists who want to devote their lives to pretending that they’re disproving God by collecting the evidence of the basketball.
That is absolutely not why people do science. They do so because they want to learn more about the universe, do some good for humanity and advance it. Do you even know a single scientist?
I am criticizing a fictional, human made character. As a result of being human made, there is no such infinite wisdom.
Imagine for once that you are completely wrong about this belief of yours. Yes, it’s the height of hubris. If we know nothing else, we know at very least that our Creator lives.
How have you determined that you aren’t worshiping an evil god if you haven’t questioned god? How do you know that it isn’t the case that both god and satan are evil?
For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
To choose just one of many possible answers.
Nobody is whispering anything in my ears, metephorically or literally, whichever way you mean. And I question everything before I believe it.
I mean literally. You may look at your shoulder, expecting to see no demon, while maybe picturing the cutesy BSD mascot, and sure enough you don’t see one sitting on your shoulder. “See?” you reassure yourself, “no demon.” You then recall that you’ve never seen the BSD mascot running around anywhere IRL, and conclude that demons must not exist.
How sure are you that you do a good job questioning everything before you believe it? Is it possible that you’ve made an error?
Demons do not look like cutesy cartoon characters, and indeed they’re not visible to the human eye (at least not to mine). As with all extant spiritual entities, we can know they exist despite our inability to see them.
Are you just as quick to deny that dark matter exists?
That’s not true. [Re: “it’s self-evidently true, as anyone who denies God cannot be said to be very intelligent.”]
You said you were willing to question your beliefs, so I urge you to question this. I think it underlies the rift between us.
You want to see yourself as a reasonably intelligent person, and you want to cling to a state of mind which you believe to be shared by other intelligent people.
But I ask you, are you so sure that it’s intelligent to reject God? Consider the following:
So you just don’t question whether or not god is good or evil, have I understood correctly? If so, then you have no method of determining if you are worshiping an evil being. That should immediately alarm you if you have any goodness in you.
I mean literally.
Like I said earlier, whichever way you mean, nobody is whispering anything in my ears.
How sure are you that you do a good job questioning everything before you believe it?
It highly depends on the matter at hand. The ridiculousness of a claim is tied to how much I look into something before believing it. If my friend tells me they got a new dog, I’ll probably believe them simply because my trust in them is sufficient for an ubiquitous claim such as that. If they tell me they bought a ferrari, I’d be a little more inquisitive and ask for pictures. If they tell me they bought a dragon, nothing short of seeing it in person will convince me because my understanding of the world is such that dragons do not exist. For a claim as ridiculous as that I would need very strong evidence.
Holding belief until you have sufficient evidence is what you do to avoid errors. I’m not perfect, there are certainly things I am wrong about. But to the best of my ability to understand, this is not something I am wrong about.
Are you just as quick to deny that dark matter exists?
We have pretty strong evidence to suggest that dark matter exists.
Again, I ask you: is it intelligent to want to be happy?
Sure, but lying to yourself will never make you happy. You’re asking me to lie to myself.
So you just don’t question whether or not god is good or evil, have I understood correctly?
Nobody has the rightful authority to question the word of God. I quoted a verse from the Bible to you. We accept God’s word without question because we are His humble servants. It would be arrogant to suppose we have permission to question His word, and it would be evil for us to desire to question His word. When you are presented with a Bible quote, you accept it as true and holy. When a demon tells you to question it, or claims that it’s false, you repent and ask Jesus to shield you from this demonic temptation. In the end, we must always conclude that the word of God is correct.
Like I said earlier, whichever way you mean, nobody is whispering anything in my ears.
And yet you continue to demonstrate clear evidence to the contrary. If you’re not plagued by demons then show me your embrace of God.
But to the best of my ability to understand, this is not something I am wrong about.
You put understanding before faith. That’s backwards. I assure you, this is something you are wrong about.
We have pretty strong evidence to suggest that dark matter exists.
True, but we have a thousand times more evidence to confirm that God exists. Evidence to which you are blind.
[Re: “Is it intelligent to want to be happy?”] Sure, but lying to yourself will never make you happy. You’re asking me to lie to myself.
I’ll reply to some of the various other things you wrote, but this is the heart of our discussion. The crux, if you will. Your perspective is that you’re too smart to believe in God, and you refuse to acknowledge that God blesses His faithful believers with happiness. You believe that intelligent people choose unhappiness despite the obvious fact that it would be rather unwise to intentionally choose unhappiness, by virtue of the very definition of happiness. The only possible explanation for your insistent rejection of God is your unknowing loyalty to Satan, who has successfully convinced you that not even he exists.
We accept God’s word without question because we are His humble servants.
Then like I said earlier, you have no method to determine what you worship is a good being. That should terrify you if you are a good person and immediately make you second guess everything.
And yet you continue to demonstrate clear evidence to the contrary. If you’re not plagued by demons then show me your embrace of God.
This is a false dichotomy.
You put understanding before faith. That’s backwards. I assure you, this is something you are wrong about.
This argument is based on the false premise that religious people would see their religion as a lie. I’m an atheist, so if I were to embrace christianity I would see it as a lie.
Your perspective is that you’re too smart to believe in God
Nope. I have no evidence for it, so I do not believe it. It has nothing to do with my intelligence.
You believe that intelligent people choose unhappiness despite the obvious fact that it would be rather unwise to intentionally choose unhappiness
Once again, belief is not a choice.
And correlation does not imply causation, therefore you cannot rationally say that being religious makes you more happy.
The only possible explanation for your insistent rejection of God is your unknowing loyalty to Satan
No, the actual explanation is my responses above. And this is also a fallacy:
Then like I said earlier, you have no method to determine what you worship is a good being.
I quoted the true word of God — the holy Bible. When you parrot your demons who claim it’s false, you reveal your foolish allegiance, but still you must know deep in your heart that God is good.
I’m not trying to prove anything here. If you think I am, I have to wonder what led you to think that.
My primary goal here should be readily obvious: Matthew 28:19–20, the Great Commission. I am planting a seed, and praying your soil is fertile.
Your primary goal here, by contrast, is laid out in Romans 1:18-32. I pray your disposition is temporary and reversible.
If you think you have evidence that I haven’t seen before I am all ears.
You’re fully immersed in it. But until you establish a penitent relationship with God, you are blind.
Nope. I have no evidence for it, so I do not believe it. It has nothing to do with my intelligence.
If you’re honestly not trying to prove how clever you are, then submit to God in faith, and the copious evidence can then be revealed to you.
Once again, belief is not a choice.
No matter how much you insist upon that, I repeatedly choose to believe in the Lord our God. I accept that you don’t yet understand how belief can be a choice, but it most certainly is.
And correlation does not imply causation, therefore you cannot rationally say that being religious makes you more happy.
I have zero doubt that the cause of happiness is God’s blessing. Joy is quintessentially Christian.
That’s a circular argument. If the devil had a holy book you’d see the same thing about how the devil is the good guy.
I’m not trying to prove anything here. If you think I am, I have to wonder what led you to think that.
I do not think that. I linked it because it is the golden standard for belief, and it requires evidence before belief.
I am planting a seed, and praying your soil is fertile.
I’ve been having these sorts of conversations with christians for over a decade. If christians had anything convincing to say, I think I would have heard it by now.
Your primary goal here, by contrast, is laid out in Romans 1:18-32.
it’s not. I’m honestly just talking with you for the sake of enjoyment at this point.
You’re fully immersed in it. But until you establish a penitent relationship with God, you are blind.
The “look at the trees” argument is an invalid one.
If you’re honestly not trying to prove how clever you are, then submit to God in faith, and the copious evidence can then be revealed to you.
Nope, evidence must come before belief, and belief is not a direct choice.
If the devil had a holy book you’d see the same thing about how the devil is the good guy.
Do you not see how ridiculous this argument is? Of course the Devil lies, but the difference between God and Satan is under most circumstances glaringly obvious.
I linked it because it is the golden standard for belief, and it requires evidence before belief.
I’ve been having these sorts of conversations with christians for over a decade.
And who do you think has been motivating you to do that? Time and again, it is the Holy Spirit who moves you. God loves you despite your continued rejection of Him. Yet every time you receive another opportunity to drink of His water, you instead choose to follow your demons.
it’s not. I’m honestly just talking with you for the sake of enjoyment at this point.
I’m guessing you didn’t actually read Romans 1:18-32. Please do. If you can be honest with yourself, you’ll find it all too familiar. What you call “the sake of enjoyment” is described.
Nope, evidence must come before belief, and belief is not a direct choice.
Faith exists only because belief is a direct choice. Surely you don’t deny the existence of faith.
So then if you understand that there is a chance that what your reading is lies, then why don’t you put any effort into determining if what you are reading is lies?
The golden standard for belief is a mustard seed.
That parable says nothing about it being the gold standard.
And who do you think has been motivating you to do that?
Time and again, it is the Holy Spirit who moves you. God loves you despite your continued rejection of Him. Yet every time you receive another opportunity to drink of His water, you instead choose to follow your demons.
None of this is true. My motivations are my own.
I’m guessing you didn’t actually read Romans 1:18-32. Please do.
Like I said in the other thread, I don’t derive any value from bible verses.
Faith exists only because belief is a direct choice.
For the sake of experiment, choose to believe that the moon is made of cheese then. You can’t do it, because you know better.
Surely you don’t deny the existence of faith.
Depends what you mean by “faith”.
If you’re talking about blind faith, then it exists as much as any other concept can, and it is almost by definition an error.
If by faith you mean trust, then in the same way it exists. But even that is based on information you hold to believe as true, which is not something that is under anybody’s direct control.
I am aware that isn’t the focus that you had in mind, but it was one of the bigger reactions I had to it. My overall view is that he is deeply out of touch and incapable of using anything other than a strawman argument. He fundamentally does not understand what he is criticizing.
That’s not what “The decline in chrstianity” describes.
That’s just not happening.
No it’s not. Western civ is a pretty arbitrary phrase that is used in a million different ways, and christianity is only a subset of that. Words and phrases change over time, and this is one of those things that has changed.
There is no such project, at least how I define western civilization.
If you’re aware of all the details then you should also be aware that the enlightment (a huge part of western civilization) was the birth of science, the scientific method, and secularism. Meaning christendom != western civ.
I am criticizing a fictional, human made character. As a result of being human made, there is no such infinite wisdom.
There is no good reason.
How have you determined that you aren’t worshiping an evil god if you haven’t questioned god? How do you know that it isn’t the case that both god and satan are evil?
Nobody is whispering anything in my ears, metephorically or literally, whichever way you mean. And I question everything before I believe it.
Both Yahweh and Zeus are fictional characters which people irrationally use to explain why things work. That was the basis for my comparison and therefore makes it a valid comparison.
That’s not really how that works.
That’s not true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
That is absolutely not why people do science. They do so because they want to learn more about the universe, do some good for humanity and advance it. Do you even know a single scientist?
Imagine for once that you are completely wrong about this belief of yours. Yes, it’s the height of hubris. If we know nothing else, we know at very least that our Creator lives.
Psalm 100:5:
To choose just one of many possible answers.
I mean literally. You may look at your shoulder, expecting to see no demon, while maybe picturing the cutesy BSD mascot, and sure enough you don’t see one sitting on your shoulder. “See?” you reassure yourself, “no demon.” You then recall that you’ve never seen the BSD mascot running around anywhere IRL, and conclude that demons must not exist.
How sure are you that you do a good job questioning everything before you believe it? Is it possible that you’ve made an error?
Demons do not look like cutesy cartoon characters, and indeed they’re not visible to the human eye (at least not to mine). As with all extant spiritual entities, we can know they exist despite our inability to see them.
Are you just as quick to deny that dark matter exists?
You said you were willing to question your beliefs, so I urge you to question this. I think it underlies the rift between us.
You want to see yourself as a reasonably intelligent person, and you want to cling to a state of mind which you believe to be shared by other intelligent people.
But I ask you, are you so sure that it’s intelligent to reject God? Consider the following:
According to Pew, actively religious people tend to be far happier. Is it intelligent to want to be happy? Could this effect possibly be a quantitative measurement of God’s blessings? And is it intelligent to want to be happy?
Again, I ask you: is it intelligent to want to be happy?
So you just don’t question whether or not god is good or evil, have I understood correctly? If so, then you have no method of determining if you are worshiping an evil being. That should immediately alarm you if you have any goodness in you.
Like I said earlier, whichever way you mean, nobody is whispering anything in my ears.
It highly depends on the matter at hand. The ridiculousness of a claim is tied to how much I look into something before believing it. If my friend tells me they got a new dog, I’ll probably believe them simply because my trust in them is sufficient for an ubiquitous claim such as that. If they tell me they bought a ferrari, I’d be a little more inquisitive and ask for pictures. If they tell me they bought a dragon, nothing short of seeing it in person will convince me because my understanding of the world is such that dragons do not exist. For a claim as ridiculous as that I would need very strong evidence.
Holding belief until you have sufficient evidence is what you do to avoid errors. I’m not perfect, there are certainly things I am wrong about. But to the best of my ability to understand, this is not something I am wrong about.
We have pretty strong evidence to suggest that dark matter exists.
Sure, but lying to yourself will never make you happy. You’re asking me to lie to myself.
Nobody has the rightful authority to question the word of God. I quoted a verse from the Bible to you. We accept God’s word without question because we are His humble servants. It would be arrogant to suppose we have permission to question His word, and it would be evil for us to desire to question His word. When you are presented with a Bible quote, you accept it as true and holy. When a demon tells you to question it, or claims that it’s false, you repent and ask Jesus to shield you from this demonic temptation. In the end, we must always conclude that the word of God is correct.
And yet you continue to demonstrate clear evidence to the contrary. If you’re not plagued by demons then show me your embrace of God.
You put understanding before faith. That’s backwards. I assure you, this is something you are wrong about.
True, but we have a thousand times more evidence to confirm that God exists. Evidence to which you are blind.
If (A) I was asking you to lie to yourself, and (B) lying to yourself will never make you happy, then © actively religious people cannot be happier than irreligious people.
This is basic logic:
A ∧ B ∴ CAnd yet © is demonstrably false, an assertion which I substantiated with hard data. And that was just one survey. Survey after survey repeatedly demonstrates that actively religious people are far happier.
I’ll reply to some of the various other things you wrote, but this is the heart of our discussion. The crux, if you will. Your perspective is that you’re too smart to believe in God, and you refuse to acknowledge that God blesses His faithful believers with happiness. You believe that intelligent people choose unhappiness despite the obvious fact that it would be rather unwise to intentionally choose unhappiness, by virtue of the very definition of happiness. The only possible explanation for your insistent rejection of God is your unknowing loyalty to Satan, who has successfully convinced you that not even he exists.
Then like I said earlier, you have no method to determine what you worship is a good being. That should terrify you if you are a good person and immediately make you second guess everything.
This is a false dichotomy.
Nope, it’s the correct way around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
If you think you have evidence that I haven’t seen before I am all ears.
This argument is based on the false premise that religious people would see their religion as a lie. I’m an atheist, so if I were to embrace christianity I would see it as a lie.
Nope. I have no evidence for it, so I do not believe it. It has nothing to do with my intelligence.
Once again, belief is not a choice.
And correlation does not imply causation, therefore you cannot rationally say that being religious makes you more happy.
No, the actual explanation is my responses above. And this is also a fallacy:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Holmesian_fallacy
I quoted the true word of God — the holy Bible. When you parrot your demons who claim it’s false, you reveal your foolish allegiance, but still you must know deep in your heart that God is good.
I’m not trying to prove anything here. If you think I am, I have to wonder what led you to think that.
My primary goal here should be readily obvious: Matthew 28:19–20, the Great Commission. I am planting a seed, and praying your soil is fertile.
Your primary goal here, by contrast, is laid out in Romans 1:18-32. I pray your disposition is temporary and reversible.
You’re fully immersed in it. But until you establish a penitent relationship with God, you are blind.
If you’re honestly not trying to prove how clever you are, then submit to God in faith, and the copious evidence can then be revealed to you.
No matter how much you insist upon that, I repeatedly choose to believe in the Lord our God. I accept that you don’t yet understand how belief can be a choice, but it most certainly is.
I have zero doubt that the cause of happiness is God’s blessing. Joy is quintessentially Christian.
That’s a circular argument. If the devil had a holy book you’d see the same thing about how the devil is the good guy.
I do not think that. I linked it because it is the golden standard for belief, and it requires evidence before belief.
I’ve been having these sorts of conversations with christians for over a decade. If christians had anything convincing to say, I think I would have heard it by now.
it’s not. I’m honestly just talking with you for the sake of enjoyment at this point.
The “look at the trees” argument is an invalid one.
Nope, evidence must come before belief, and belief is not a direct choice.
Do you not see how ridiculous this argument is? Of course the Devil lies, but the difference between God and Satan is under most circumstances glaringly obvious.
The golden standard for belief is a mustard seed.
And who do you think has been motivating you to do that? Time and again, it is the Holy Spirit who moves you. God loves you despite your continued rejection of Him. Yet every time you receive another opportunity to drink of His water, you instead choose to follow your demons.
I’m guessing you didn’t actually read Romans 1:18-32. Please do. If you can be honest with yourself, you’ll find it all too familiar. What you call “the sake of enjoyment” is described.
Faith exists only because belief is a direct choice. Surely you don’t deny the existence of faith.
So then if you understand that there is a chance that what your reading is lies, then why don’t you put any effort into determining if what you are reading is lies?
That parable says nothing about it being the gold standard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
None of this is true. My motivations are my own.
Like I said in the other thread, I don’t derive any value from bible verses.
For the sake of experiment, choose to believe that the moon is made of cheese then. You can’t do it, because you know better.
Depends what you mean by “faith”.
If you’re talking about blind faith, then it exists as much as any other concept can, and it is almost by definition an error.
If by faith you mean trust, then in the same way it exists. But even that is based on information you hold to believe as true, which is not something that is under anybody’s direct control.