- cross-posted to:
- chapotraphouse@hexbear.net
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Ohhh, a juicy struggle sesh!
Good post, too.
It’s amazing just how accurately Huxley describes what we see happening in the west today.
Nice title which suggests you have absolutely no idea what liberal means (in this or any other context) and you thought this was an attack against liberals.Update:
I made a mistake. I didn’t notice the actual community name and had a knee-jerk reaction to the subject as an attack on “liberals” as is commonly used when talking about politics in the U.S.
In review, I see that you are having a more intellectual conversation and I should have taken more time to see that in the first place. Apologies.
Seems that it is in fact you who have no clue what liberalism is. Liberal democracies are dictatorships of capital, and they quickly pull off their mask in times of crisis. Freedom under liberalism primarily refers to freedom of those who own private property to exploit others for their benefit. The imposition of the capitalist system that is at the root of liberalism is fundamentally based on violence and coercion, forcing individuals to conform to its principles or face dire consequences.
Liberalism has two distinct aspects: political liberalism, which champions individual freedom and democracy, and economic liberalism, which is synonymous with capitalism. While appearing compatible, the two faces of liberalism clash once the interests of capital come under threat. Political liberties are inevitably sacrificed to protect the economic interests of the ruling class.
When threatened by populism, liberalism readily abandons its political ideals in favor of preserving the capitalist economic system. It ultimately serves as nothing more than a mask for capitalism, concealing its exploitative nature behind a facade of individual freedom and democracy.
The concept of property, central to liberalism, is presented as a cornerstone of freedom. However, it ignores the fact that individual property can represent a theft from the community, and its protection justifies state violence. Liberalism’s commitment to freedom of expression is undermined by its legal and constitutional protections of property, which remove the issue of property rights from the realm of political discourse.
I have updated my original comment. Thank you for your response.
👍
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We do know what “liberal” means. Here is very first sentence from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law.
By “private property,” what is meant is “the means of production.” Liberalism is the philosophy of the bourgeoisie, otherwise known as the capitalist class.
I have updated my original comment. Thank you for your response.
Private property isn’t as supportive of capitalism as it initially seems. Classical laborists (e.g. Proudhon) and their modern intellectual descendants (e.g. David Ellerman) argue that the positive and negative results of production are the private property of the workers in the firm. This argument immediately implies a worker coop structure mandate on all firms and rules out capitalism. Capitalism is so indefensible that even private property requires the abolition of capitalism
Private property isn’t as supportive of capitalism as it initially seems.
Private property is the very foundation of capitalism. The capitalist class owns the means of production, and the working class must sell the only thing it can—its labor—to survive.
Classical laborists (e.g. Proudhon) and their modern intellectual descendants (e.g. David Ellerman) argue that the positive and negative results of production are the private property of the workers in the firm.
They can argue that all they like, but the facts on the ground are that the capitalists own the private property, and the state enforces that ownership though its monopoly on violence. It’s a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, usually in the form of bourgeois democracy, and occasionally, in times of crisis, in the form of fascism.
Private property rests on the principle of people getting the fruits of their labor. In other words, private property appropriation has a labor-basis that capitalism denies. Capitalism violates the very principle behind private property by giving workers 0% joint claim on the positive and negative fruits of their labor
“Property is theft!” – Proudhon
The employment contract is what really enables capitalist appropriation.
I agree with your critique of capitalist liberal democracy
You didn’t make a mistake, bro. You can’t argue with blind people, don’t worry about being nice.
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I’m literally a westerner in China and all I can tell you is you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
It’s staggering how propagandised westerners are. That you can look at the history you yourself have lived through and proclaim yourself as free is proof of that.
It truly is sad.
Hey, where do you live? I have friends from Shanghai who would disagree with you. Also, my Chinese wife and their family would disagree.
But that’s fine, plenty of room for different opinions online.
I’m currently in 兴义市。What does your Chinese wife have to say about China? My experience is that Chinese expats who have criticisms of China tend to be from rather wealthy families who have issues with the regulations in China. They move to the west because it’s a lot easier to exploit the working class, both in their adopted country, and in the global South.
I find that their sob stories about lack of freedom revolve around their lack of freedom to do whatever the hell they want. My girlfriend’s brother fits into this category. A millionaire crypto bro who thinks China is an authoritarian hellhole because it puts limits on his outrageous and unproductive speculation and ambitions to be a landlord. That’s ok though, because he’s able to exploit as many Western workers as he likes, stealing their labour value and “providing” them housing by buying it all up and selling it back to them at outrageously inflated prices. What freedom.
Ehm… Exploiting the lower class is easier in China? There is literally a very high youth unemployment rate right now. Why do you think I take my vacation in China? Because taking a cab from Beijing airport to Beijing center costs like 3-4 EUR. Foods cheap, stores are always open, vibrant night life, and all because people are working so much.
Hmm yes, cheap food, and a vibrant night life. Coupled with 90% home ownership. All hallmarks of an oppressed working class.
I’m sure they’re dying to pay £4.50 for a shitty ham sandwich and forking over half their wages every month to a landlord.
I think you missed safety as well, huge difference here in the West compared to China
Indeed. It’s remarkably safe here. According to some people another hallmark of freedom is the freedom to be robbed.
You do understand that if workers are paid less in China but the cost of living is also lower then the level of exploitation isn’t necessarily greater right?
I suspect this account is a sock puppet. Brand new account made of greek letters that immediately wades into a debate about socialism.
Langley ain’t sending their best.
They’re probably just your average imperial core labor aristocrat or petit bourgeois.
We can exchange numbers and have facetime, so I can destroy your illusion :)
You do understand that many people work more than 40h a week, because they have to?
Don’t just ignore my questions. It’s relevant to the conversation and your perceptions of China.
I’m aware that work hours are long in China. I don’t think that’s a good thing. However, it’s not unique if you take into account China’s level of development.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-vs-gdp-per-capita-pwt
It’s also not as if western countries like the US are great either. Full time workers in the US work more than 40 hours during a standard work week.
https://www.bls.gov/charts/american-time-use/activity-by-work.htm
All in all, the fact remains that for most Chinese people, quality of life has improved significantly within a very short time span. It’s likely why most Chinese people believe their government is democratic because they believe it’s acting in their interests to improve their lives.
🤦♂️
A KGB spy and a CIA agent meet up in a bar for a friendly drink.
“I have to admit, I’m always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up,” the CIA agent says.
“Thank you,” the KGB says. “We do our best but truly, it’s nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them.”
The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. “Thank you friend, but you must be confused… There’s no propaganda in America.”
Poor people living there… Being fed lies from their media, and basically being rejected the access to true freedom, like in the “western world”
How do we know that’s true?
My rich and political active Chinese friends told me.
Your poor rich friends. Maybe they should take the money and run.
Not possible! CCP is limiting how much money you can exchange each year. That’s how free China is :)
Yeah, those are capital controls. The horror. Won’t somebody please think of the gusanos!
Yep. So who right in their mind would live their wealth behind, when Millionaires live like kings in Shanghai, as long as they don’t voice their actual opinions?
Every fucking time it’s Gusano.
Like being a Gusano is anything bad. I will see you fleeing If russia comes to your country.
I mean, I have friends in the CCP. Do you know how fucking brainwashed they get? My friend’s wife joined them… My friend rejected, calling it more like a Religion/Cult.
It’s the CPC BTW. Do they brainwash them into spelling it correctly?
Stop lying, you are transparent.
It’s CCP.
cope
Cope,
cope,
cope
about it you ignorant racist imperial peon.
Chinese people feel both that their country is more democratic, and that democracy is more important than USians do.
And they're right
Because in the US, the average person’s support for a policy has NO EFFECT on how likely it is to be passed, whereas the opinions of the ultra-wealthy are basically already law.
A lot of people are saying…
[Princeton & Northwestern] Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
The US is dominated by a rich and powerful elite.
So concludes a recent study, external by Princeton University Prof Martin Gilens and Northwestern University Prof Benjamin I Page.
This is not news, you say.
Perhaps, but the two professors have conducted exhaustive research to try to present data-driven support for this conclusion. Here’s how they explain it:
Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.
In English: the wealthy few move policy, while the average American has little power.
Oh… My wife is Chinese, she agrees with me. My child is half Chinese… So, all I am saying is, that there are Chinese who believe differently. Mostly the ones, who have seen the outside world.
Maybe you should grow up :)
Actually, Chinese people who spend a few years in the US become more anti-US and more pro-China. In any case, my bet is your whole story is made up.
Dito
that there are Chinese who believe differently
The chart CascadeOfLight posted showed a minority of 17% of Chinese citizens think their country isn’t a democracy. What led you to believe COL didn’t think those people were real? Who exactly are you arguing against here?
“I have black friends” but with so many additional layers of creepiness
Cope, kys
A my Chinese wife guy? lol
Lol, cope. We live in Europe ;)
