I feel like men do have it tough and when men start talking about it, they get shutdown and told to be a man. Boys dont cry afterall. So some men may feel its unfair when women speak up and are heard. So they want to make it about them.
In the comic, just as the men are dismissive of woman problems, she is dismissive of mens problems.
Instead of attacking an unfair weath class system, we bicker about shupid shit like men vs women. Its not race, gender or sexuality we should be discussing. Its social, weath classes.
The time to talk about men’s problems is any time you like, except when a woman has just started talking about women’s problems. If you redirect a conversation about women’s problems, you’re telling the women that you don’t care about their problems. If that’s the case, fine. Just don’t contribute, and let people who want to discuss the women’s problems do that. Start another conversation about men’s problems elsewhere.
I guess so. Like most whataboutism it’s a deflection for the sake of self- preservation. The truth is that there are specific problems with the way society treats women, and recognising that is disruptive and possibly painful.
The problem is that it’s so easy to see it as a mechanism to maintain the status quo. Which it so often is. Even when men call for change, it’s quite often “women should behave differently” rather than “everyone needs to reflect on their behaviour and start making changes for the better.”
I think people do care about men’s problems, but too often it just comes out as “the problem is toxic masculinity”.
Fundamentally yes that is a major problem, and we need to find a better identity that men can subscribe to. But it’s like taking a book and just showing people the last page: it seems like irrelevant nonsense without the preceding understanding.
If we set up a place where we listened to each other, and to the feedback of women, with the intent of forging a new and more functional form of masculinity, I for one would be very interested indeed.
What do you personally see as male problems? Without googling - just off the top of your head. Im intrigued as to what gets broadcast.
Off the top of my head for women - safety (both physical and psychological), financial independence, equality of opportunity, disparate domestic and emotional load, sexual objectification, gender pay disparity (overall), representation.
I won’t say reproductive rights because I don’t live in the US, and while body image is a problem, I think its also impacting a lot of young men too.
I think we have a lot of problems with mood regulation and emotional control of ourselves. We have problems with empathy, both experiencing it and expressing it. We have problems with sharing power. We have problems with responsibility: taking either too much of it or not enough. We have problems with openness, examining our beliefs, thoughts and emotions, especially with the help of others. We have problems with ambition and identity, aiming for things that are unrealistic or unhealthy, not clearly knowing what successful masculinity looks like in 2024. We have problems with body image, in novel and unexamined ways compared with women: there is absolutely no such thing as male body positivity. We have problems making friends and finding a partner. We have problems concentrating at school. Not all of us have all these problems, but I think there’s a lot in this list that a lot of men will identify with if they’re being honest.
Honestly, that is a good list of the internal struggles, though everything she had said to which you were replying were external pressures. I agree wholeheartedly with your list, but I feel we need to also represent the externalities we face as well.
I can only speak for myself and from a neurodivergent US perspective. I see a society which still applies enormous pressure on men to be the “provider” in a system which as made being a sole provider nearly impossible. A society which ties our worth and value as a human being to what we can provide, primarily, for employers, then secondarily to loved ones. We are expected to sacrifice our health, both mental and physical, to work in often abusive or untenable positions from which we see no escape becacusr to escape is to fail our family. We are told continuously that our only purpose in existence is to sacrifice, and if we try to take some space for ourselves when WE need it, we are selfish, inconvenient, or heartless and abusive.
To expand on HowManyNimons point about making friends and finding a partner, we are still expected, on the whole, to be the instigators of romantic relationships. To place ourselves in the position of being vulnerable, then rejected, sometimes with damaging savagery, repeatedly for a good chunk of our adolescent and post-adolescent years. As to the friendship relationships, as we get older and our focus is mandated by society to be focused on ever increasing sacrifice, we see the potential pools of friendships shrink. We are so stressed from work, money, and family that the idea of having to put in extra effort for finding and developing new friendships just feels Sisyphean. We end up in a negative feedback loop of social isolation which leads to even further mental dysfunction.
Again, this is my self assessment and social observation. I suffer all of this, and more, daily. My family is very worried about me because it has gotten so bad for me that it is like I have forgotten what happiness and contentment feel like.
I feel like men do have it tough and when men start talking about it, they get shutdown and told to be a man. Boys dont cry afterall. So some men may feel its unfair when women speak up and are heard. So they want to make it about them. In the comic, just as the men are dismissive of woman problems, she is dismissive of mens problems. Instead of attacking an unfair weath class system, we bicker about shupid shit like men vs women. Its not race, gender or sexuality we should be discussing. Its social, weath classes.
Not as presented. She’s being actively interrupted and trying to stay focused on her original topic.
The time to talk about men’s problems is any time you like, except when a woman has just started talking about women’s problems. If you redirect a conversation about women’s problems, you’re telling the women that you don’t care about their problems. If that’s the case, fine. Just don’t contribute, and let people who want to discuss the women’s problems do that. Start another conversation about men’s problems elsewhere.
Whataboutism at its core I think.
I guess so. Like most whataboutism it’s a deflection for the sake of self- preservation. The truth is that there are specific problems with the way society treats women, and recognising that is disruptive and possibly painful.
The problem is that it’s so easy to see it as a mechanism to maintain the status quo. Which it so often is. Even when men call for change, it’s quite often “women should behave differently” rather than “everyone needs to reflect on their behaviour and start making changes for the better.”
Fair. Just that nobody cares about mens problems, especially women.
I think people do care about men’s problems, but too often it just comes out as “the problem is toxic masculinity”.
Fundamentally yes that is a major problem, and we need to find a better identity that men can subscribe to. But it’s like taking a book and just showing people the last page: it seems like irrelevant nonsense without the preceding understanding.
If we set up a place where we listened to each other, and to the feedback of women, with the intent of forging a new and more functional form of masculinity, I for one would be very interested indeed.
What do you personally see as male problems? Without googling - just off the top of your head. Im intrigued as to what gets broadcast.
Off the top of my head for women - safety (both physical and psychological), financial independence, equality of opportunity, disparate domestic and emotional load, sexual objectification, gender pay disparity (overall), representation.
I won’t say reproductive rights because I don’t live in the US, and while body image is a problem, I think its also impacting a lot of young men too.
Broadcast to whom? I’m a man too, as it happens.
I think we have a lot of problems with mood regulation and emotional control of ourselves. We have problems with empathy, both experiencing it and expressing it. We have problems with sharing power. We have problems with responsibility: taking either too much of it or not enough. We have problems with openness, examining our beliefs, thoughts and emotions, especially with the help of others. We have problems with ambition and identity, aiming for things that are unrealistic or unhealthy, not clearly knowing what successful masculinity looks like in 2024. We have problems with body image, in novel and unexamined ways compared with women: there is absolutely no such thing as male body positivity. We have problems making friends and finding a partner. We have problems concentrating at school. Not all of us have all these problems, but I think there’s a lot in this list that a lot of men will identify with if they’re being honest.
Honestly, that is a good list of the internal struggles, though everything she had said to which you were replying were external pressures. I agree wholeheartedly with your list, but I feel we need to also represent the externalities we face as well.
I can only speak for myself and from a neurodivergent US perspective. I see a society which still applies enormous pressure on men to be the “provider” in a system which as made being a sole provider nearly impossible. A society which ties our worth and value as a human being to what we can provide, primarily, for employers, then secondarily to loved ones. We are expected to sacrifice our health, both mental and physical, to work in often abusive or untenable positions from which we see no escape becacusr to escape is to fail our family. We are told continuously that our only purpose in existence is to sacrifice, and if we try to take some space for ourselves when WE need it, we are selfish, inconvenient, or heartless and abusive.
To expand on HowManyNimons point about making friends and finding a partner, we are still expected, on the whole, to be the instigators of romantic relationships. To place ourselves in the position of being vulnerable, then rejected, sometimes with damaging savagery, repeatedly for a good chunk of our adolescent and post-adolescent years. As to the friendship relationships, as we get older and our focus is mandated by society to be focused on ever increasing sacrifice, we see the potential pools of friendships shrink. We are so stressed from work, money, and family that the idea of having to put in extra effort for finding and developing new friendships just feels Sisyphean. We end up in a negative feedback loop of social isolation which leads to even further mental dysfunction.
Again, this is my self assessment and social observation. I suffer all of this, and more, daily. My family is very worried about me because it has gotten so bad for me that it is like I have forgotten what happiness and contentment feel like.
You still hear “man up” a lot and it’s fucked up.
Did you just call gender-based discrimination a side contradiction?