Europe wonāt be able to finance Ukraineās defenses against Russiaās invasion on its own if the US withdraws support under Donald Trumpās next presidency, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said Friday.
Orban said recent events vindicated the conclusions from his controversial July diplomatic mission to Kyiv, Moscow and Beijing and showed Ukraine was losing the war.
āThe Americans are going to get out of this war,ā Orban, who is hosting a European Union summit in Budapest on Friday, said on public radio. āEurope canāt finance this war on its own.ā
Once again, Orban says exactly what Putin wants him to say
At some point it becomes malicious to even print what he says
Once again, a liberal is upset that a war might end and people might stop dying.
In the past I would have understood this comment as perhaps hyperbolic, but now I do believe they just want to see the kill count go up. If Clinton feels that 40,000 dead Palestinians arenāt enough, who knows how he feels about dead Ukrainians and what number would he consider unacceptable.
Exactly, these are complete psychopaths who see human beings as just pawns to be moved around on their grand chess board.
Iām sick & tired of this āvegetarians are just repeating Hitler talking pointsā fallacious reasoning.
Two people can come to the same conclusion without one parroting the other. In fact two people can come to the same conclusion for completely different reasons, or through completely different reasoning.
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Oh, I remember you š
Conservatives/Shills I made delete their accounts in shame by beating them in arguments : 2
I think we went over this alreadyā¦
- Wall Street Journal: Mueller Doesnāt Find Trump Campaign Conspired With Russia
- Jacobin: Democrats and Mainstream Media Were the Real Kremlin Assets
- Washington Post: FEC fines DNC, Clinton for violating rules in funding Steele dossier
- Washington Post: Russian trolls on Twitter had little influence on 2016 voters
- Jacobin: It Turns Out Hillary Clinton, Not Russian Bots, Lost the 2016 Election
- Matt Taibbi: Move Over, Jayson Blair: Meet Hamilton 68, the New King of Media Fraud The Twitter Files reveal that one of the most common news sources of the Trump era was a scam, making ordinary American political conversations look like Russian spywork
- Jacobin: Why the Twitter Files Are in Fact a Big Deal On the Left, thereās been a temptation to dismiss the revelations about Twitterās internal censorship system that have emerged from the so-called Twitter Files project. But that would be a mistake: the news is important and the details are alarming.
- MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
- Jeff Gerth at Columbia Journalism Review on Russiagate: Editorās Note | Part one | Part two | Part three | Part four
- Matt Taibbi: WMD, Part II: CIA āCooked The Intelligenceā To Hide That Russia Favored Clinton, Not Trump In 2016
- Chris Hedges: Why Russiagate Wonāt Go Away
Are we going to blame Russian bots for Harrisā loss as well? Because the FBI was already trying to the week before election day. FBI links video falsely depicting voter fraud in Georgia to āRussian influence actorsā
Once again, a lemmy.world poster says exactly what the state department wants him to say.
There is an unfortunate reality that there is a tipping point. At some point, Europe will need to cede Ukraine and stock up for itself to defend the next Russian incursion.
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If the US allows Israel to annex the North of Gaza like it allowed it to annex the Golan Heights, Russia can just point to that as precedent and evidence of US double standards.
The truth is that Russia already has a precedent in Yugoslavia. In fact, Russia intentionally modelled Ukraine on what NATO did in Yugoslavia where they recognized the independence of breakaway regions and had them invite NATO for help.
There is always a cutoff cost. For example, it cannot support Ukraine to the point that itās own territorial security is compromised.
Ukraine is currently fighting this war for Europe too. Spending money and lifes directly in a confrontation is massively more expensive than sending weapons.
I disagree, Europe needs to never cede Ukraine at any costāanything else is rewarding the warmonger
Yeah, why would Europe do that? After all its Ukrainians who will continue dying after being kidnapped off the streets and forbidden to leave the country.
Enjoy your life, and donāt think of hundreds of thousands dead people (not like you ever did that of course)ā¦
Yeah the best way to discourage a revanchist is to give him what he wants. Succeeding in Ukraine will definitely convince Putin not to attack the baltics, poland, or finland.
If NATO is really as effective as itās claimed to be, then the baltics, Poland, and Finland have nothing to worry about.
The enemy is both strong and weak. Russia is a paper tiger that will roll over all of Europe.
Thatās what I donāt get. Russia is a laughing stock with its outdated equipment and inability to conquer Ukraine, yet it is also a massive threat to Europe leading Sweden and Finland scrambling to join NATO.
And if we are to believe that NATO is an effective alliance, then surely Russia will go no further than Ukraine. Yet we canāt let Putin win because he will try to go further than Ukraine.
Make it make sense. Some people are talking out both sides of their mouths.
You donāt understand anything about military reality, let alone actual motivations.
The CIA itself reports and has been reporting for years that Putin has no expansionist ambitions politically and no expansionist capabilities militarily.
Thereās a reason why the Russian military has not tried to take Kiev and itās because defending supply lines across the wide open plains of Ukraine is incredibly difficult and costly.
Russia is not capable of taking all of Eastern Europe and holidng and it has no plans or intentions to do so.
You donāt understand what Russia wants; you understand what Western propaganda tells you it wants.
- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript
- Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraineās regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: āI want to bring up a warriorā: Ukraineās far-right childrenās camp ā video
- George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard U.S. Secretary of State James Bakerās famous ānot one inch eastwardā assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University.
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraineās neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraineās new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 āpro-Russiaā parties?
- Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far RightāLed Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2023: The Westās Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennettās recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia.
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
- History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV
INB4 NATO is a defensive alliance.
- Counterpunch, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous āDefensiveā Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO āmost violent, aggressive alliance in the worldā
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
Just because you can cherry pick a dozen articles from the last TEN YEARS about NATO and Ukraine doesnāt make you right.
I donāt even need an article to refute all of that - Russia attacked a neighbor unprovoked, NATO has attacked NOBODY ever.
NATO has attacked NOBODY ever.
This isnāt true, unless Arabs arenāt people. Being a liberal we probably arenāt people to you so whatever crimes NATO committed doesnāt count.
Edit: I always forget Yugoslavia, a European country that NATO attacked. The US even bombed the Chinese embassy there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade
ComPleTeLy UnProVokEd š¤”
Russia attacked a neighbor unprovoked
I just showed you any number of Western media sources on how it was provoked, but hereās another from Jeffrey Sachs: The War in Ukraine Was Provokedāand Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
NATO has attacked NOBODY ever.
For just two examples, NATO bombed the city of Belgrade for 78 straight days, and it destroyed Libya.
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The protests against Yanukovych were peaceful until his regime turned on the protesters.
That is not what happened. It is now known that that was in fact a false flag attack by CIA-backed Banderite fascists. It is also now known that the āpeaceful protestā was not entirely grassroots, but rather astroturfed.
But why am I wasting my time arguing with you when youāre obviously here for some reason to carry water for Russia?
But why am I wasting my arguing with you when youāre obviously here for some reason to carry water for imperialists? The US is aiding and abetting a genocide in Palestine as we speak, yet somehow you still think weāre the good guys (though, to be fair, I wouldnāt call Russia a perfect angel, either).
Jeffrey Sachs
Lol. Neoliberal wrecking crew turned autocratās errand boy.
Naomi Klein wasnāt wrong about neoliberal/neocolonial shock therapy, but she was wrong to paint Sachs as the great villain of that story. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWYZpF2ngnc
Please tell me this is sarcasm. The fact that there have been so much consistent reporting over such a long period of time about NATO and Ukraine means it absolutely needs to be considered.
I donāt even need an article to refute all of that - Russia attacked a neighbor unprovoked, NATO has attacked NOBODY ever.
Again, please tell me this is satire. NATO has attacked multiple countries over the years. But also, since the advent of nuclear weapons, firing the first shot stopped being the standard. Because the first shot can now be a total annihilation shot, no country is capable of having a strategy that judges threats only by who fired the first shot. It must be judged by who is establishing the positioning to undermine security. Russia is not deploying nuclear capabilities around the world. The USA is deploying nuclear capabilities around the world, and in Europe it is doing so through NATO. This may be a shock to you, but deploying nuclear capabilities to undermine the security of another nation is NOT an act of peace.
Amazing how there are still people here who donāt understand that NATO lost.
NATO are only tough against small countries with marginal militaries.
Itās literally an alliance of bullies.
stock up for itself to defend the next Russian incursion.
As long as NATO stops its incursions, I donāt see why European states would need to do that.
- George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard
- Jeffrey Sachs, May 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provokedāand Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
- Jeffrey Sachs, Sep. 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine
I was saying that with the assumption that the US winds down support for Ukraine and is not seen as a trusted partner for European security.
I mean, the US Democrat administration blew up its European partnerās gas pipeline, which is a casus belli, so it was already untrustworthy.
Henry Kissinger:
- America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests.
- It may be dangerous to be Americaās enemy, but to be Americaās friend is fatal.
That is a crazy take. Europe could spend some money and help Ukraine win this without losing any of their own soldiersā lives.
yeah, itās only Ukrainians hopping into the meat grinder, after all
š¤”
Heās wrong of course, Europeās economy is many times stronger than Russiaās. The real question is if they can find the collective will to defend themselves.
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Agreed. Apparently the mod does not agree.
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In a sane world, orban, putin, Fico and Trump would have been rid of years ago
Orban is a traitor to democracy and mankind, fuck him.
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The only positive outcome from Harris losing.
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No, I want NATO to lose
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Orban only fears the EU gives less money to him.
Says the man always dragging his feet when time comes to support Ukraineās self-defense
What a weird way to say support for the western installed regime forcing Ukrainians to fight a proxy war against Russia.
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Not a great guy, but in this case he is completely right.
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Donāt put a shitheadās message in the headline. It spreads it. Headlines must be true, not false.
Look up George Lakoff videos, everybody.
The Eurozone is structurally neoliberal, austerian, and anti-Keynesian, and Europeāwhich was already greatly de-industrializedāis right now further de-industrializing thanks to their self-imposed sanctions against Russia (and thanks to their NATO āpartnerā blowing up their gas pipeline), which has raised energy prices.
Orban is correct.
For all the people here āsupporting Ukraineā because you know, if Putin captures Ukraine then he will genocide Ukrainians and all that - this is exactly the same narration that Zelenskyās regime is using to kidnap people and send them to the meatgrinder (kill them). A video from Kharkiv where TCC attempts to kidnap people from a bus scaring them with āRussian Worldā coming to Ukraine: https://files.catbox.moe/c72hez.MP4
People in the bus are accusing them of being āa traitor to the motherlandā and telling them to go fuck themselves. But you know better what those people should do, right? They all should go and die for your wild fantasies of ābut but but Putin will invade the whole world if we donāt stop him (well, not you personally of course, why would you go and fight your wars, but you know, Ukrainians)ā.
After all, Zelensky said that Ukrainians are willing to fight, and he would never lie, right? All the videos, articles in your western medias about people NOT wanting to fight but still being exterminated by Zelenskyās regime, etc are fakes.Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Pro russia botThe Russiagate conspiracy theories are evergreeen.
- Wall Street Journal: Mueller Doesnāt Find Trump Campaign Conspired With Russia
- Jacobin: Democrats and Mainstream Media Were the Real Kremlin Assets
- Washington Post: FEC fines DNC, Clinton for violating rules in funding Steele dossier
- Washington Post: Russian trolls on Twitter had little influence on 2016 voters
- Jacobin: It Turns Out Hillary Clinton, Not Russian Bots, Lost the 2016 Election
- Matt Taibbi: Move Over, Jayson Blair: Meet Hamilton 68, the New King of Media Fraud The Twitter Files reveal that one of the most common news sources of the Trump era was a scam, making ordinary American political conversations look like Russian spywork
- Jacobin: Why the Twitter Files Are in Fact a Big Deal On the Left, thereās been a temptation to dismiss the revelations about Twitterās internal censorship system that have emerged from the so-called Twitter Files project. But that would be a mistake: the news is important and the details are alarming.
- MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
- Jeff Gerth at Columbia Journalism Review on Russiagate: Editorās Note | Part one | Part two | Part three | Part four
- Matt Taibbi: WMD, Part II: CIA āCooked The Intelligenceā To Hide That Russia Favored Clinton, Not Trump In 2016
- Chris Hedges: Why Russiagate Wonāt Go Away
Eh, and as almost my every comment like this one, it got reported from LW user with reason āpro Russian botā :/
If you think that caring about peoplesā lives and posting evidence of human right abuses is somehow a sign of a person being Russian, or just something that is worth a condemnationā¦ What kind of mental gymnastics routine are you doing every morning to still consider yourself a good person?..You know, I would be surprised that you say this insane shit, but you are in a libertarian instance, so irony is lost. Although Iāve never seen a libertarian tankie, so thats new. Fuck the government unless that government is a fascist one with a dictator, then that is okay of course
Fuck the government unless that government is a fascist one with a dictator, then that is okay of course
What? I just criticized a fascist government with a dictator, and you accuse me of not doing that? š¤¦āā
And what is āinsaneā in my comment?
Ukranian governement is not fascist, nor with a dictator. If they werent invaded by a fascist imperialist government, they would have had elections by now. They donāt have them, because the polling places would be shelled by orcs, as they always shell civilians.
Posting a random video, with a story, without providing a single fucking source (that isnāt russian propaganda). You also insinuated zelenski is exterminating his people, which is insane
Ukranian governement is not fascist, nor with a dictator.
It is both. Zelenskyās regime ticks almost every (or just every) description of fascism from wikipedia. He is a dictator. Even your comment in the next sentences doesnāt DISPROVE it, you merely try to JUSTIFY it.
Posting a random video, with a story, without providing a single fucking source (that isnāt russian propaganda).
I (re)posted dozens of such videos already, where my compatriots who havenāt managed to escape Zelenskyās murderous regime either fight kidnapping attempts from TCC, or try to escape or are getting caught and busified.
This was described countless times in western media https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/10/03/ukraine-is-employing-increasingly-controversial-methods-for-mobilization_6728127_4.html and I actually just found out it is also described in wikipedia now, including the word busification https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_conscription_crisis, and yet there is always someone to deny it. As for my sources, I mainly take it from Ukrainian telegram channels, where people post those from first sources.
āŠ£Ń ŠøŠ»ŃŠ½Ń IŠ½ŃŠ¾ā: https://t.me/+ECYgfpxkTz4zOGNh
āŠ„Š¾Š²Š°Š¹ŃŃā: https://t.me/HOVAYSY
āŠ ŠµŠ°Š»ŃŠ½ŠøŠ¹ ŠŠøŃŠ²ā: https://t.me/kievreal1But Ukrainians are Russian bots now, right? How dare we, not willing to die for your interests?
You also insinuated zelenski is exterminating his people, which is insane
Why? He literally forbade people from leaving the country, kidnaps people one by one off the streets and sends them to their deaths. How is this not an extermination? Every moment he remains in power is a moment he exterminates more and more Ukrainians, if he wonāt be stopped he will kill everyone.
no comment
The Americans are going to get out of this war,
I just hope he is correct
I hope the Russians get out of it as it has hurt them the most.
It has unquestionably hurt the Ukrainian people the most.
Meanwhile in the real world. Russia was able to successfully redirect its trade towards the Global South at this point. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/russian-oil-gas-revenue-soars-41-first-half-data-shows-2024-07-03/
The World Bank just reclassified Russia as a high income country https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/opendata/world-bank-country-classifications-by-income-level-for-2024-2025
Meanwhile, the IMF forecasts that Russian economy is set to grow faster than all the western economies https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/17/russia-forecast-to-grow-faster-than-advanced-economies-in-2024-imf.html
Europe is the big loser here after Ukraine. Having lost access to the Russian market and cheap energy. Meanwhile, Russia selling energy on the cheap to China and India makes Europe uncompetitive in terms of manufacturing.
The Americans arenāt in the war. Theyāre just dealing in arms.
Americans are in the war, but Western media arenāt going to broadcast that. We have support forces in Ukraine, we provide Ukraine with invaluable intel and targeting data, we have American volunteers in the International Legion (one of whom was killed in action this week, and he wasnāt the first). Biden announced yesterday that heās going to let even more Americans directly fight in this war.
The international legion is made up of people from around the world, not just the US. Itās not under US command. US civilians can act as they wish. Their actions are not the actions of their country.
The story you link is Biden relaxing US corporations taking up supply and support contracts. The article even says that these organisations will NOT be fighting, yet you willfully misinterpret it.
The USA, the country, is not in Ukraine.
