“Well for Hitler and White Supremacists they clearly weren’t making “society better for basically everyone” and all it takes to understand this is basic logic that they support one superior race and commit genocides against other races.”
You missed my point. THEY thought they were making society better. That “everyone” meant exclusively aryans to them I thought was obvious and fundamental to the point I’m try to make - that from their perspective their actions were perfectly reasonable and justified. There’s uncomfortably little daylight between that and MAGA beliefs.
“…if they want to make a convincing argument that Christian Nationalism is a good thing”
I’m disappointed that you missed this too and launched into a segue that has little to do with the topic I brought up. I don’t think you really read my comment.
" If you want to convince me that genocides are good for humanity, you’re going to need to be a lot more convincing than that."
Ok now we’re getting ridiculous. I’m now convinced that you either didn’t read what I wrote or just didn’t understand it.
“Trump is an actually interesting candidate promising to make radical changes, aligning with the interests and identities of many Americans, and building a shared vision and hope for the future”
Untruthfully. You are missing that very important qualificaiion.
“While meanwhile the Democrats fuck around doing basically nothing, they flip-flop on their stances whenever its convenient for them”
A common error. “I didn’t personally notice any change so therefore they did nothing.” It’s demonstrably NOT true.
“Approaching capitalists in an open-minded way rarely works.”
That doesn’t even make sense. Who said anything about “approaching capitalists in an open-minded way”? WTF are you talking about?
Dude, I started out reading your lengthy comment excited to have a substantive debate. I thought you might have some interesting points. But you are so all over the place and use a very large volume of words to say very little. I’m disappointed.
So what are you saying? That objectivity doesn’t exist? That there is no way to run a society that objectively does a better job at making people as a whole feel comfortable? That it’s ideal for people with opposing ideologies to exist (I used to think that when I was a libertarian but over time realized that having an ideology coexist with another ideology that wants the first ideology gone simply doesn’t work well at all, so we need to find the ideology that works better and progress from the other one).
I would argue that there is no objective right or wrong, but also that people in general have certain shared interests and usually some sort of a common moral ground. Like basically nobody wants to be in a concentration camp. People don’t like being endangered by others, so basic laws are agreed upon to minimize this, like don’t murder or rape people. And people want to be free to do things they want to do, so if they don’t cause significant problems to another person they should be allowed. There might not be an objective “right” but there is an objective “this is what this person wants” for every person which means that there is a way to balance these interests to come up with a set of principles that objectively makes a society that is comfortable for as many people as possible. So since I naturally want to be comfortable and I know other people naturally want to be comfortable and societies tend to be more efficient and comfortable when people cooperate, working toward these principles is how we successfully do that, and this is what I will use as my basis for right and wrong.
However, when one person’s freedom infringes on the freedoms of another person, this is where major problems arise and compromises need to be made. With the goal being to have a society that is comfortable for as many people as possible, this means that there is an objectively best compromise that meets this goal, and what people need to do is figure out what that “objectively best” compromise is, which happens by understanding the context of every party involved in this conflict. So whether an action is “right” in terms of making a society that is comfortable for as many people as possible is dependent entirely on the context, not the action itself. Which means that while actions such as killing another person are normally “wrong” as it infringes on the freedom of another person, if killing that person helps society reach the goal of being as comfortable for as many people as possible (i.e. the person is actively oppressing people based on characteristics they cannot change and killing them would help stop that), then killing that person is “right” in terms of that moral context.
This is the basic idea that separates “fascism” from “antifascism” (and other similar ideas such as “racism” vs “antiracism”), in that they may use similar tactics but when you look at what those actions are objectively doing to people, one is promoting discrimination based on characteristics people cannot change leading to a more unequal society that deviates from this ideal, and the other is countering that, leading to a less overall unequal society and progressing toward that ideal.
The challenge is that this objectivity in terms of what actions are “right” and “wrong” is still being discovered and debated on, and putting those disagreements in light so they can be resolved is important for making social progress. But in the end, whether a person or a society is “fascist” is an objective measure and in my view there is nothing wrong with combating this through any means possible.
So what are you saying? That objectivity doesn’t exist?
I think the fact that this is so unclear to you is both disappointing and disturbing. And you are going so so so far afield in an apparent effort to hear yourself talk more that I’m just not that keen on engaging.
Then clarify your statement. What even are you trying to convince me? You keep telling me that everyone thinks they are right and people should follow the law - but the law is made by the same people who think they’re right so what makes the law so special? Why should I as a person with strong opinions on many topics ditch my own moral compass in favor of the law? I can’t tell what point you’re trying to make with this.
“Well for Hitler and White Supremacists they clearly weren’t making “society better for basically everyone” and all it takes to understand this is basic logic that they support one superior race and commit genocides against other races.”
You missed my point. THEY thought they were making society better. That “everyone” meant exclusively aryans to them I thought was obvious and fundamental to the point I’m try to make - that from their perspective their actions were perfectly reasonable and justified. There’s uncomfortably little daylight between that and MAGA beliefs.
“…if they want to make a convincing argument that Christian Nationalism is a good thing”
I’m disappointed that you missed this too and launched into a segue that has little to do with the topic I brought up. I don’t think you really read my comment.
" If you want to convince me that genocides are good for humanity, you’re going to need to be a lot more convincing than that."
Ok now we’re getting ridiculous. I’m now convinced that you either didn’t read what I wrote or just didn’t understand it.
“Trump is an actually interesting candidate promising to make radical changes, aligning with the interests and identities of many Americans, and building a shared vision and hope for the future”
Untruthfully. You are missing that very important qualificaiion.
“While meanwhile the Democrats fuck around doing basically nothing, they flip-flop on their stances whenever its convenient for them”
A common error. “I didn’t personally notice any change so therefore they did nothing.” It’s demonstrably NOT true.
“Approaching capitalists in an open-minded way rarely works.”
That doesn’t even make sense. Who said anything about “approaching capitalists in an open-minded way”? WTF are you talking about?
Dude, I started out reading your lengthy comment excited to have a substantive debate. I thought you might have some interesting points. But you are so all over the place and use a very large volume of words to say very little. I’m disappointed.
So what are you saying? That objectivity doesn’t exist? That there is no way to run a society that objectively does a better job at making people as a whole feel comfortable? That it’s ideal for people with opposing ideologies to exist (I used to think that when I was a libertarian but over time realized that having an ideology coexist with another ideology that wants the first ideology gone simply doesn’t work well at all, so we need to find the ideology that works better and progress from the other one).
I would argue that there is no objective right or wrong, but also that people in general have certain shared interests and usually some sort of a common moral ground. Like basically nobody wants to be in a concentration camp. People don’t like being endangered by others, so basic laws are agreed upon to minimize this, like don’t murder or rape people. And people want to be free to do things they want to do, so if they don’t cause significant problems to another person they should be allowed. There might not be an objective “right” but there is an objective “this is what this person wants” for every person which means that there is a way to balance these interests to come up with a set of principles that objectively makes a society that is comfortable for as many people as possible. So since I naturally want to be comfortable and I know other people naturally want to be comfortable and societies tend to be more efficient and comfortable when people cooperate, working toward these principles is how we successfully do that, and this is what I will use as my basis for right and wrong.
However, when one person’s freedom infringes on the freedoms of another person, this is where major problems arise and compromises need to be made. With the goal being to have a society that is comfortable for as many people as possible, this means that there is an objectively best compromise that meets this goal, and what people need to do is figure out what that “objectively best” compromise is, which happens by understanding the context of every party involved in this conflict. So whether an action is “right” in terms of making a society that is comfortable for as many people as possible is dependent entirely on the context, not the action itself. Which means that while actions such as killing another person are normally “wrong” as it infringes on the freedom of another person, if killing that person helps society reach the goal of being as comfortable for as many people as possible (i.e. the person is actively oppressing people based on characteristics they cannot change and killing them would help stop that), then killing that person is “right” in terms of that moral context.
This is the basic idea that separates “fascism” from “antifascism” (and other similar ideas such as “racism” vs “antiracism”), in that they may use similar tactics but when you look at what those actions are objectively doing to people, one is promoting discrimination based on characteristics people cannot change leading to a more unequal society that deviates from this ideal, and the other is countering that, leading to a less overall unequal society and progressing toward that ideal.
The challenge is that this objectivity in terms of what actions are “right” and “wrong” is still being discovered and debated on, and putting those disagreements in light so they can be resolved is important for making social progress. But in the end, whether a person or a society is “fascist” is an objective measure and in my view there is nothing wrong with combating this through any means possible.
I think the fact that this is so unclear to you is both disappointing and disturbing. And you are going so so so far afield in an apparent effort to hear yourself talk more that I’m just not that keen on engaging.
Have a nice day.
Then clarify your statement. What even are you trying to convince me? You keep telling me that everyone thinks they are right and people should follow the law - but the law is made by the same people who think they’re right so what makes the law so special? Why should I as a person with strong opinions on many topics ditch my own moral compass in favor of the law? I can’t tell what point you’re trying to make with this.