And sometimes not doing it is. Versailles? Frenchify it unless you’re talking abouta small town in Kentucky. Paris? Pronounce it the same whether it’s the one in France or in Texas. Milan? Honestly no clue and I live here (America, not italy)
Yeah, it’s weird. Sometimes people think it’s pretentious and sometimes people think you’re an idiot, whether you do it correctly or not. Like all rules with the English language, it’s a case-by-case issue. If anyone tells you a rule to remember it, it’s likely wrong more often than it’s correct.
The cultural backlash comes not from ‘pronouncing things correctly makes you sound educated’ but because people that do this are adopting an accent for one singular word, and that is often perceived as them attempting to imply some connection to that group/culture that they do not have.
Americans, white Americans especially, have essentially no cultural heritage to draw on. It’s why we latch onto things like a grandparent being from Ireland and thence go around calling ourselves Irish-American, or the confederate stans. People with a rich cultural history are generally viewed as extremely interesting, too, so when another american adopts characteristics from a culture they have no real connection with, it’s perceived as a deeply tacky attempt to gain social clout. Its akin to being presented with a lesser form of weaboo.
(to be fair, this does happen with the perception of educated people too. “Use real words” and all that, so you’re not really wrong just a bit wide of the mark on the particulars)
What do you mean, “white Americans have no cultural heritage”? Your culture runs the planet and has been a going concern for several centuries across hundreds of millions of people. We are in twenty twenty five, good sir. AD. Place got colonized in the sixteenth century. Half of Europe was in a completely different country back then, even discounting all the American history that goes before that.
And yeah, it’s weird that you latch on to foreign ancestry as a substitute. I’d joke about it, but I’m here getting all pissy about the US equivalent, so it’d be hypocritical, I suppose.
Not OP, but maybe it’s better phrased as “white Americans have a limited shared cultural heritage.”
Waves of immigration make it hard to tell what of that 5 centuries is actually shared. It’s also viewed as tacky to try and lay claim to the bit before your ancestors arrived.
If your ancestors were Irish and Italian immigrants from around 1850, going off about the Mayflower can be viewed as similar putting on airs
It’s our national Mythology, we’re a land of migrants and refugees. People have been coming to this land for 500 years, yeah that’s a long time compared to our perspective, but there are traditions and cultures in Europe that predate even knowing about the existence of other land in another hemisphere by an additional 1000 years.
And the culture you describe as dominant over the world while yes is predominantly white, is just unchecked capitalism and neoliberalism and a product of whoever controls the largest military and acts as the economic measuring stick to the rest of the world and that if any other nation were to unseat the US as the dominant economic and militant force, then their oligarch’s culture would dominate the planet.
Yeah, that’s your culture. I mean, time to own it.
For one thing, the rest of us out here don’t make that much of a distinction between different US subcultures. Trump is American culture, Oprah is American culture. They’re all pretty much the same thing.
For another, have some accountability. You guys did this, and yet you all insist it was not you you and you all feel so much more connected to wherever else. No. Stop it. Own it or change it.
Also, as a side point, man, do Americans love to exoticize how old everywhere else is. Yeah, sure, there are a bunch of medieval castles around and a few cultural remnants in traditions, but by and large most European folklore is rooted in some 18th/19th century crap, just like in the US. Europeans aren’t out there having Saturnalia parties.
I mean, I get it to an extent. I’m much more in favor of linguistic descriptivism rather than prescriptivism, so I acknowledge that terms and pronunciations can develop over time and are not wrong.
If someone pronounces “Beijing” in English with a softened J/G sound (like “beige”) and someone else corrects them with “Oh do you mean bei-JING”, truthfully neither are wrong. The correct pronunciation is whatever people understand and accept.
On the other hand, suggesting that there is a single correct/more authentic pronunciation (particularly in cases where it may not even conform to standard English phonemes) veers into prescriptivism and has problematic connotations.
Hm, but reacting negatively to someone pronouncing it, for lack of a better term, the original way IS presciptivism. This isn’t about someone who pronounces a Spanish word the Spanish way criticizing someone who pronounces it the English way, but the other way around.
I think it depends on intent and what one’s native language is. Basically, why would someone opt to pronounce a word a certain way if they know there’s differing standards.
No one can help accents, so if for example I was natively Spanish speaking and, while speaking English, I pronounced some Spanish-derived loanwords with the occasional rolled R, no one should be faulted for that.
But if I grew up speaking English natively, learned Spanish after the fact, and then I opt to use the Spanish pronunciation of Spanish-derived terms while speaking English, that comes across as pretentious. I used to pronounce these words one way, but then I gained knowledge, and now I self-correct because I (consciously or subconsciously) want to signal to others that I know more about a language than they do. That act of self-correcting would be an implicit declaration that there is a more correct way to pronounce these words that people who know the difference should use, and pushes back on the idea that the pronunciation of a loanword in the destination language can be equally valid.
Only if you are not a native speaker of that language, or always? Am I supposed to imitate how Americans botch the names of German car manufacturers like Porsche or Volkswagen if I ever go on vacation there?
In my experience, you’re exempt if it’s from your native language. Unless they can’t tell your native language from your accent (people can tell I’m not a native speaker of English, but they can’t tell what my native language is). British are similar.
To be honest, when I’m speaking German, I pronounce it as French as I can (foh-pah), but when I’m speaking English, I pronounce it like the English speakers do (foe-pah).
English here. I’m with you. I’m not sure if we stole the idea from French, but we do have a lot of spellings reflecting obsolete pronunciations like they do, if not a load of other funny orthographic habits.
Noah Webster did try to fix things a little for the US, but his success was limited. And of course, the rest of the Anglosphere hasn’t bothered.
(We do seem to have adopted “jail” over “gaol” though, if not a couple of others.)
I remember talking to these girls on discord, and they kept talking about their new fox ears, and then when they showed me, they were bunny ears on a headband. That’s when I realized they were saying faux ears.
This video says it both ways I’ve heard. The white people around me pronounce it like the one with the union jack (heavy emphasis on the B), the Spanish speakers pronounce it more like the version with the American flag background (ironic). Most of the other pronunciation videos I could find seem to be made by AI voices and mangle the pronunciation in a myriad of ways. This other video has an actual person speaking well (I can’t speak to the rest of the content of the video).
Pronouncing things as they would be in the language they’re actually in is sometimes a faux pas in American culture, I’ve learned
And sometimes not doing it is. Versailles? Frenchify it unless you’re talking abouta small town in Kentucky. Paris? Pronounce it the same whether it’s the one in France or in Texas. Milan? Honestly no clue and I live here (America, not italy)
Yeah, it’s weird. Sometimes people think it’s pretentious and sometimes people think you’re an idiot, whether you do it correctly or not. Like all rules with the English language, it’s a case-by-case issue. If anyone tells you a rule to remember it, it’s likely wrong more often than it’s correct.
Let’s be fair: doing things the correct way, or just being slightly educated, is often a faux pas in this wasteland pretending to be a civilization.
The cultural backlash comes not from ‘pronouncing things correctly makes you sound educated’ but because people that do this are adopting an accent for one singular word, and that is often perceived as them attempting to imply some connection to that group/culture that they do not have.
Americans, white Americans especially, have essentially no cultural heritage to draw on. It’s why we latch onto things like a grandparent being from Ireland and thence go around calling ourselves Irish-American, or the confederate stans. People with a rich cultural history are generally viewed as extremely interesting, too, so when another american adopts characteristics from a culture they have no real connection with, it’s perceived as a deeply tacky attempt to gain social clout. Its akin to being presented with a lesser form of weaboo.
(to be fair, this does happen with the perception of educated people too. “Use real words” and all that, so you’re not really wrong just a bit wide of the mark on the particulars)
What do you mean, “white Americans have no cultural heritage”? Your culture runs the planet and has been a going concern for several centuries across hundreds of millions of people. We are in twenty twenty five, good sir. AD. Place got colonized in the sixteenth century. Half of Europe was in a completely different country back then, even discounting all the American history that goes before that.
And yeah, it’s weird that you latch on to foreign ancestry as a substitute. I’d joke about it, but I’m here getting all pissy about the US equivalent, so it’d be hypocritical, I suppose.
Not OP, but maybe it’s better phrased as “white Americans have a limited shared cultural heritage.”
Waves of immigration make it hard to tell what of that 5 centuries is actually shared. It’s also viewed as tacky to try and lay claim to the bit before your ancestors arrived.
If your ancestors were Irish and Italian immigrants from around 1850, going off about the Mayflower can be viewed as similar putting on airs
It’s our national Mythology, we’re a land of migrants and refugees. People have been coming to this land for 500 years, yeah that’s a long time compared to our perspective, but there are traditions and cultures in Europe that predate even knowing about the existence of other land in another hemisphere by an additional 1000 years.
And the culture you describe as dominant over the world while yes is predominantly white, is just unchecked capitalism and neoliberalism and a product of whoever controls the largest military and acts as the economic measuring stick to the rest of the world and that if any other nation were to unseat the US as the dominant economic and militant force, then their oligarch’s culture would dominate the planet.
Yeah, that’s your culture. I mean, time to own it.
For one thing, the rest of us out here don’t make that much of a distinction between different US subcultures. Trump is American culture, Oprah is American culture. They’re all pretty much the same thing.
For another, have some accountability. You guys did this, and yet you all insist it was not you you and you all feel so much more connected to wherever else. No. Stop it. Own it or change it.
Also, as a side point, man, do Americans love to exoticize how old everywhere else is. Yeah, sure, there are a bunch of medieval castles around and a few cultural remnants in traditions, but by and large most European folklore is rooted in some 18th/19th century crap, just like in the US. Europeans aren’t out there having Saturnalia parties.
I thought they drew from the varied backgrounds of the people that came over there? That’s a shitload of heritage
Let’s not put them on the pedal stool
I mean, I get it to an extent. I’m much more in favor of linguistic descriptivism rather than prescriptivism, so I acknowledge that terms and pronunciations can develop over time and are not wrong.
If someone pronounces “Beijing” in English with a softened J/G sound (like “beige”) and someone else corrects them with “Oh do you mean bei-JING”, truthfully neither are wrong. The correct pronunciation is whatever people understand and accept.
On the other hand, suggesting that there is a single correct/more authentic pronunciation (particularly in cases where it may not even conform to standard English phonemes) veers into prescriptivism and has problematic connotations.
Hm, but reacting negatively to someone pronouncing it, for lack of a better term, the original way IS presciptivism. This isn’t about someone who pronounces a Spanish word the Spanish way criticizing someone who pronounces it the English way, but the other way around.
I think it depends on intent and what one’s native language is. Basically, why would someone opt to pronounce a word a certain way if they know there’s differing standards.
No one can help accents, so if for example I was natively Spanish speaking and, while speaking English, I pronounced some Spanish-derived loanwords with the occasional rolled R, no one should be faulted for that.
But if I grew up speaking English natively, learned Spanish after the fact, and then I opt to use the Spanish pronunciation of Spanish-derived terms while speaking English, that comes across as pretentious. I used to pronounce these words one way, but then I gained knowledge, and now I self-correct because I (consciously or subconsciously) want to signal to others that I know more about a language than they do. That act of self-correcting would be an implicit declaration that there is a more correct way to pronounce these words that people who know the difference should use, and pushes back on the idea that the pronunciation of a loanword in the destination language can be equally valid.
Only if you are not a native speaker of that language, or always? Am I supposed to imitate how Americans botch the names of German car manufacturers like Porsche or Volkswagen if I ever go on vacation there?
In my experience, you’re exempt if it’s from your native language. Unless they can’t tell your native language from your accent (people can tell I’m not a native speaker of English, but they can’t tell what my native language is). British are similar.
But if you pronounce faux pas wrong, it’s also faux pas
To be honest, when I’m speaking German, I pronounce it as French as I can (foh-pah), but when I’m speaking English, I pronounce it like the English speakers do (foe-pah).
“Foh” and “foe” both read as the same pronunciation to me. What’s the difference?
https://i.imgur.com/ErOd97q.jpeg
I’m curious, what is it?
Fox-Pass. Yes, people here really say it like that.
I blame the French for that, if you want a word to be pronounced a certain way don’t spell it totally different.
I urgently need to know if you’re at the very least German, because if you’re anglophone that statement is straight up against the law.
Wenn es so dringend ist hättest du auch mein Profil checken können.
Schönen Tag noch.
English here. I’m with you. I’m not sure if we stole the idea from French, but we do have a lot of spellings reflecting obsolete pronunciations like they do, if not a load of other funny orthographic habits.
Noah Webster did try to fix things a little for the US, but his success was limited. And of course, the rest of the Anglosphere hasn’t bothered.
(We do seem to have adopted “jail” over “gaol” though, if not a couple of others.)
France has many linguistic crimes to answer for…
English spelling can be difficult as well: http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html
I remember talking to these girls on discord, and they kept talking about their new fox ears, and then when they showed me, they were bunny ears on a headband. That’s when I realized they were saying faux ears.
[ faux pas ]
Pronounce both x(ks) and s. That’s how I believed it to be pronounced until 30s lmao
I assume most people without actual knowledge of the pronunciation (ie. has only seen it on text) would pronounce it
Fowks pass!
I’ve been mocked and had some people outright pretend they don’t understand what I’m saying when I pronounce guanábana correctly.
How do the people around you pronounce it? I don’t think I’d understand it if it were pronounced differently
This video says it both ways I’ve heard. The white people around me pronounce it like the one with the union jack (heavy emphasis on the B), the Spanish speakers pronounce it more like the version with the American flag background (ironic). Most of the other pronunciation videos I could find seem to be made by AI voices and mangle the pronunciation in a myriad of ways. This other video has an actual person speaking well (I can’t speak to the rest of the content of the video).