games designed for an Xbox or PlayStation pad will still play better with the native hardware
it’s difficult for the dual-trackpads to replace the trusty thumbstick, especially when it comes to aiming in first-person shooters
you literally just cherry-picked the same “stick replacement” talking point that I’ve already identified as a strawman and irrelevant to this discussion 🤦 Dude, no one is saying that the touchpads are a stick replacement or that the Steam Controller is better for playing controller-first console games. That’s literally why there are 2 analog sticks on the Steam Deck… and why I use them for controller-first games… and why Steam Controller isn’t my favorite or even what I would recommend for controller-first games… If someone at Valve said that once, then they’re wrong. The analog sticks being better for controller games doesn’t change the fact that not having touchpads entirely limits the usability of the device for non-controller games.
If all you play are console games and first-person shooters, 1) that’s totally fine, 2) yeah, you probably don’t get much if any use out of the touchpads. Those aren’t the only games that I play on Steam Deck or while docked to TV, though, and the touchpads on the Steam Deck and Steam Controller allow me to to play these other types of games that would not be possible to play effectively with a typical controller. If the Steam Deck only came with touchpads and no sticks, then we would be limited in the other direction. It has both, but other devices marketed as Steam Deck challengers do not have both.
it ultimately fails at replicating the speed and precision of a mouse for gaming
Obviously… lol, its not like the intention was ever to be using the Steam Controller at a desk while gaming on a desktop instead of using the mouse… but I’m not going to use a traditional mouse when sitting on my couch. Still irrelevant
Valve said it. It’s not a straw man. I’m not cherry picking. Those are direct quotes from contemporary reviewers going off Valve’s marketing and review guides. The first that I could find, too, there’s only so much homework I’m willing to do.
The damn thing went to market with that as a USP. They told everybody the pads were superior before they had to backtrack on it and add a single stick because they couldn’t get playtesters to go along with it.
If you think you know better than Valve and they mismarketed the thing… well, great. Good for you. But they still mismarketed the thing, people still reviewed it as a stick replacement and it still reviewed poorly on that front.
Now, I’d argue it was also poor at being a mouse replacement, which is also something mentioned in contemporary reviews. It may technically enable you to play a strategy game, but you’re not going to excel at Dota 2 on a Steam Controller. There are multiple superior alternatives. Most obviously to just… you know, go to a desk and play with a mouse, but there are also multiple solutions to have a laptop mouse and keyboard combo. There was that Roccat solution and there are a number of variants on “here’s a flat surface with a USB hub inside it” you can use for that, if you must.
So if it’s not a great standard controller replacement and it’s not a great mouse replacement, what is it for? It never solved the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively, which by your own account was the entire idea (even though it wasn’t). The solution to that ended up being developers adding mouse and keyboard options instead. And maybe gyro aiming.
In any case, we at least got Steam Input out of it, which never did much to fix the shortcomings of the Steam Controller, but is a solid tool to enhance controller support for other devices and it picks up the slack from Sony refusing to properly support their controllers on PC.
Arguing against a point that actually isn’t the argument the other person is making is the definition of strawman. I am not arguing that the touchpads are good for replacing sticks. Making the point that touchpads are bad at replacing sticks over and over again is a textbook example of a strawman. I agree with you on it, it is irrelevant, it doesn’t score you any points against what I am actually saying.
So if it’s not a great standard controller replacement and it’s not a great mouse replacement
Correct, yes, we all agree here.
what is it for?
Playing non-controller games from the couch or in a handheld form factor. Lmfao
It never solved the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively
This is where we disagree and what you have not actually made any points on that support your opinion that touchpads do not solve this effectively, besides it hurts your thumbs, which is a you thing, really
No, friend, the argument you’re making is that Valve didn’t sell it based on its ability to replace sticks or mice, which is what is incorrect.
Also, there are no points. This is a conversation, not basketball.
Explain to me how we can simultaneoulsy agree that it’s not a great mouse replacement and you can still claim that it’s a good solution to play non-controller games.
What non-controller games are these that don’t rely on a mouse? Have we been arguing about your Donkey Konga or Typing of the Dead controller all along?
No, friend, the argument you’re making is that Valve didn’t sell it based on its ability to replace sticks or mice, which is what is incorrect.
What??? No, reading comprehension (probably a good idea to understand the argument the other person is making before engaging with them). As I’ve stated over and over, the Steam Controller is good for playing non-controller games on the couch. Here, literally the first marketing paragraph from the literal Steam website…
Wow, gee… the exact point I’ve made over and over…
Its not a great mouse replacement
This means that I’m not going to sit down at my desk to play games on my desktop and choose to pick up a Steam Controller instead of just using the mouse that is right there. That does not mean that the touchpads aren’t still great for using with mouse-based games, which they are, it “solves the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively”, but yeah it isn’t better than a mouse. The Steam Controller has not replaced using a mouse.
I don’t think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol.
I mean, it’s easier homework if I only have to scroll up. You said what you said. Valve said what they said.
The weird part is we’ve ended up in the same place as the original Steam Controller. From being the “everything controller” that will support all types of games on a TV to being… well, not the right controller for games with controller support and clearly not as good as a mouse and keyboard for everything else, but hey, you could play stuff this way if you really wanted to.
Which is obviously not a great value proposition. “Hey, here’s a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk” was never going to revolutionize gaming.
Oh, and by the way, I let this pass earlier because we weren’t focusing on it, but for the Steam Deck specifically, the idea that the touchpads are “irreplaceable” and completely change the game when compared to other devices is also kind of confusing because…
… well, there’s a touchscreen right there.
Not all games play well with touch inputs, but when you pile that on top of everything else the slice of games where the touchpads are an irreplaceable, indispensable requirement is vanishingly small.
I don’t have a problem with people liking weird or inconvenient controls, mind you. It’s just that I really would have prefered a version of the Deck that didn’t need the Dumbo ears for the sake of keeping that weird vestigial remnant of the Steam Machines era.
I don’t think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol.
What point are you making by quoting this…? Like… I stand by the quote. Yup, its not a stick replacement. Yup, the sticks have always belonged on the Steam Deck and it was never intended to be touchpad-only.
“Hey, here’s a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk”
Compared to… what is the better way, exactly? It’s actually: “Hey, here’s a way to play a few (‘few’ 🙄 sure) of your games on a TV instead of at your desk that you couldn’t have done before with a controller”. Or is your answer “Just play those games on a desktop with a mouse! Stop having fun!” lmfao
… well, there’s a touchscreen right there.
Do you have three hands…? How are you holding the controller while operating the triggers and buttons and using the touchscreen at the same time? Using your nose to touch the screen? I think maybe you “let that one pass” for a reason 😉 (it doesn’t make any sense and isn’t relevant to the discussion). Are you genuinely proposing that “touchpads are bad and hard to use” but “the touch screen is a viable way to play mouse-based games”??
for the sake of keeping that weird vestigial remnant of the Steam Machines era.
Lmao boy, you are not going to like the Steam Deck 2 when it comes out. Guarantee that touchpads will continue to be first class citizens
Neither I, nor Valve, have ever pushed the touchpads as a stick replacement, and I will just keep reiterating my point that they are indispensable for use with non-controller games and without them,
Valve DID say they were a stick replacement. Maybe we can keep going until we catch up with ourselves.
I’m confused about why playing on your desk is “not fun”, but I assume that was a joke? Besides that I’ve also mentioned multiple ways to use a mouse and keyboard on a TV, which I do routinely and it’s just fine with next to no compromises. Plus the touchscreen on a Deck, motion controls and other stuff.
For the record, the touchscreen doesn’t need a third hand at all. Plenty of games are perfectly playable touch-only and for anything with partial touch support it’s barely an inconvenience to tap something on the screen and go back to the controllers. Maybe at this point you should tell me what mystery game absolutely requires a dual touchpad setup but doesn’t require the responsiveness of precision of a mouse, thus making it indispensible to have your handheld device be the width of a tabloid or your controller have no right stick.
Because, honestly, I’m drawing a blank here. The proportion of games that don’t support controllers, can’t be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small, in my book. And, frankly, for whatever those are the real answer is to… you know, play something else? Not every game needs to be played on every device. I wouldn’t play some games on a Deck not because they lack controller features but simply because they’re not the best fit for the device and I have thousands of other games I could play instead that feel at home on a handheld.
The proportion of games that don’t support controllers, can’t be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small
Hmm, gee, let me think… perhaps any game where you need to be able to point the mouse without clicking or while clicking several times, or any game where you need the ability to left click or right click? Lmfao a tiny miniscule proportion of games, right???
Or maybe even a game where you need to press A to jump or X to interact while also controlling the mouse? I’m sure there’s only one or two games ever made like that… 🤦
you literally just cherry-picked the same “stick replacement” talking point that I’ve already identified as a strawman and irrelevant to this discussion 🤦 Dude, no one is saying that the touchpads are a stick replacement or that the Steam Controller is better for playing controller-first console games. That’s literally why there are 2 analog sticks on the Steam Deck… and why I use them for controller-first games… and why Steam Controller isn’t my favorite or even what I would recommend for controller-first games… If someone at Valve said that once, then they’re wrong. The analog sticks being better for controller games doesn’t change the fact that not having touchpads entirely limits the usability of the device for non-controller games.
If all you play are console games and first-person shooters, 1) that’s totally fine, 2) yeah, you probably don’t get much if any use out of the touchpads. Those aren’t the only games that I play on Steam Deck or while docked to TV, though, and the touchpads on the Steam Deck and Steam Controller allow me to to play these other types of games that would not be possible to play effectively with a typical controller. If the Steam Deck only came with touchpads and no sticks, then we would be limited in the other direction. It has both, but other devices marketed as Steam Deck challengers do not have both.
Obviously… lol, its not like the intention was ever to be using the Steam Controller at a desk while gaming on a desktop instead of using the mouse… but I’m not going to use a traditional mouse when sitting on my couch. Still irrelevant
Valve said it. It’s not a straw man. I’m not cherry picking. Those are direct quotes from contemporary reviewers going off Valve’s marketing and review guides. The first that I could find, too, there’s only so much homework I’m willing to do.
The damn thing went to market with that as a USP. They told everybody the pads were superior before they had to backtrack on it and add a single stick because they couldn’t get playtesters to go along with it.
If you think you know better than Valve and they mismarketed the thing… well, great. Good for you. But they still mismarketed the thing, people still reviewed it as a stick replacement and it still reviewed poorly on that front.
Now, I’d argue it was also poor at being a mouse replacement, which is also something mentioned in contemporary reviews. It may technically enable you to play a strategy game, but you’re not going to excel at Dota 2 on a Steam Controller. There are multiple superior alternatives. Most obviously to just… you know, go to a desk and play with a mouse, but there are also multiple solutions to have a laptop mouse and keyboard combo. There was that Roccat solution and there are a number of variants on “here’s a flat surface with a USB hub inside it” you can use for that, if you must.
So if it’s not a great standard controller replacement and it’s not a great mouse replacement, what is it for? It never solved the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively, which by your own account was the entire idea (even though it wasn’t). The solution to that ended up being developers adding mouse and keyboard options instead. And maybe gyro aiming.
In any case, we at least got Steam Input out of it, which never did much to fix the shortcomings of the Steam Controller, but is a solid tool to enhance controller support for other devices and it picks up the slack from Sony refusing to properly support their controllers on PC.
Arguing against a point that actually isn’t the argument the other person is making is the definition of strawman. I am not arguing that the touchpads are good for replacing sticks. Making the point that touchpads are bad at replacing sticks over and over again is a textbook example of a strawman. I agree with you on it, it is irrelevant, it doesn’t score you any points against what I am actually saying.
Correct, yes, we all agree here.
Playing non-controller games from the couch or in a handheld form factor. Lmfao
This is where we disagree and what you have not actually made any points on that support your opinion that touchpads do not solve this effectively, besides it hurts your thumbs, which is a you thing, really
No, friend, the argument you’re making is that Valve didn’t sell it based on its ability to replace sticks or mice, which is what is incorrect.
Also, there are no points. This is a conversation, not basketball.
Explain to me how we can simultaneoulsy agree that it’s not a great mouse replacement and you can still claim that it’s a good solution to play non-controller games.
What non-controller games are these that don’t rely on a mouse? Have we been arguing about your Donkey Konga or Typing of the Dead controller all along?
What??? No, reading comprehension (probably a good idea to understand the argument the other person is making before engaging with them). As I’ve stated over and over, the Steam Controller is good for playing non-controller games on the couch. Here, literally the first marketing paragraph from the literal Steam website…
Wow, gee… the exact point I’ve made over and over…
This means that I’m not going to sit down at my desk to play games on my desktop and choose to pick up a Steam Controller instead of just using the mouse that is right there. That does not mean that the touchpads aren’t still great for using with mouse-based games, which they are, it “solves the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively”, but yeah it isn’t better than a mouse. The Steam Controller has not replaced using a mouse.
I mean, it’s easier homework if I only have to scroll up. You said what you said. Valve said what they said.
The weird part is we’ve ended up in the same place as the original Steam Controller. From being the “everything controller” that will support all types of games on a TV to being… well, not the right controller for games with controller support and clearly not as good as a mouse and keyboard for everything else, but hey, you could play stuff this way if you really wanted to.
Which is obviously not a great value proposition. “Hey, here’s a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk” was never going to revolutionize gaming.
Oh, and by the way, I let this pass earlier because we weren’t focusing on it, but for the Steam Deck specifically, the idea that the touchpads are “irreplaceable” and completely change the game when compared to other devices is also kind of confusing because…
… well, there’s a touchscreen right there.
Not all games play well with touch inputs, but when you pile that on top of everything else the slice of games where the touchpads are an irreplaceable, indispensable requirement is vanishingly small.
I don’t have a problem with people liking weird or inconvenient controls, mind you. It’s just that I really would have prefered a version of the Deck that didn’t need the Dumbo ears for the sake of keeping that weird vestigial remnant of the Steam Machines era.
What point are you making by quoting this…? Like… I stand by the quote. Yup, its not a stick replacement. Yup, the sticks have always belonged on the Steam Deck and it was never intended to be touchpad-only.
Compared to… what is the better way, exactly? It’s actually: “Hey, here’s a way to play a few (‘few’ 🙄 sure) of your games on a TV instead of at your desk that you couldn’t have done before with a controller”. Or is your answer “Just play those games on a desktop with a mouse! Stop having fun!” lmfao
Do you have three hands…? How are you holding the controller while operating the triggers and buttons and using the touchscreen at the same time? Using your nose to touch the screen? I think maybe you “let that one pass” for a reason 😉 (it doesn’t make any sense and isn’t relevant to the discussion). Are you genuinely proposing that “touchpads are bad and hard to use” but “the touch screen is a viable way to play mouse-based games”??
Lmao boy, you are not going to like the Steam Deck 2 when it comes out. Guarantee that touchpads will continue to be first class citizens
Alright, so more homework:
Valve DID say they were a stick replacement. Maybe we can keep going until we catch up with ourselves.
I’m confused about why playing on your desk is “not fun”, but I assume that was a joke? Besides that I’ve also mentioned multiple ways to use a mouse and keyboard on a TV, which I do routinely and it’s just fine with next to no compromises. Plus the touchscreen on a Deck, motion controls and other stuff.
For the record, the touchscreen doesn’t need a third hand at all. Plenty of games are perfectly playable touch-only and for anything with partial touch support it’s barely an inconvenience to tap something on the screen and go back to the controllers. Maybe at this point you should tell me what mystery game absolutely requires a dual touchpad setup but doesn’t require the responsiveness of precision of a mouse, thus making it indispensible to have your handheld device be the width of a tabloid or your controller have no right stick.
Because, honestly, I’m drawing a blank here. The proportion of games that don’t support controllers, can’t be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small, in my book. And, frankly, for whatever those are the real answer is to… you know, play something else? Not every game needs to be played on every device. I wouldn’t play some games on a Deck not because they lack controller features but simply because they’re not the best fit for the device and I have thousands of other games I could play instead that feel at home on a handheld.
Hmm, gee, let me think… perhaps any game where you need to be able to point the mouse without clicking or while clicking several times, or any game where you need the ability to left click or right click? Lmfao a tiny miniscule proportion of games, right???
Or maybe even a game where you need to press A to jump or X to interact while also controlling the mouse? I’m sure there’s only one or two games ever made like that… 🤦
Lmaoo yep, that’s what I thought.