Hey folks

I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.

I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.

Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:

  • Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
  • Use arguments rather than calling people names
  • Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual

With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.

On defederation in general

First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.

I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.

Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.

Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.

Regarding hexbear

Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.

The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.

My own experience with hexbear

I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.

Background

My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).

I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.

Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.

Hexbear user response

Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:

  • Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
  • Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
  • Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier

I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.

Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.

Hexbear admin response

After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:

  1. They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
  2. They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
  3. They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways

Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.

At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.

I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don’t have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.

Where thing stand right now

I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.

Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.

Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.

  • 14th_cylon@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    no such context for the hammer and sickle’s use

    here is your context. your comrades advocating for class war and killing people for crime of having more money than you

    However, if we’re going to talk about people who deserve to die, I think capitalists and landlords are up there

    (https://lemm.ee/comment/2366296)

    most of us are white or Hispanic rather than Indian (being a mostly American website), which means that we generally

    i have no idea how you had arrived to this conclusion or why you think it is relevant

    have no connection to the swastika in its original use but some connection to the Nazi use, whereas the uses of the hammer and sickle by other parties in Europe, Latin America, tbe US, and elsewhere are ones that we could plausibly have actual connections to.

    i live in a country that was under both nazi and russian occupation. people were killed in the name of swastika. and later people were killed in the name hammer and sickle. they were shot on the borders for the crime of attempting to leave the communist paradise and there kids wouldn’t be allowed to school for not having correct political profile.

    so trust me, we have quite strong “actual connection” here. just because you are uneducated american, doesn’t mean that everyone else is.

    I disagree with the equating of the hammer and sickle to the swastika to start with

    you are right, it is nor really fair to nazis, who killed measly 17 million people, compared to impressive 100 million killed by communists.

    you are on my blocklist now, so don’t bother with another pile of your communist bullshit, i am not interested.

    • uralsolo [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      lmao you’re a black book guy? To think I felt bad and deleted my comment.

      Landlords, kulaks, Nazis collaborators etc are not ethnic groups, they are groups of people who have explicitly chosen to do something that is incredibly harmful to others, often thousands or millions of others. Saying that they deserve to die is no different than saying that someone who commits a murder does, it’s just that our society has conditioned you into thinking that the terrible things wrought by capitalists are “normal”.

    • HornyOnMain [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      your comrades advocating for class war and killing people for crime of having more money than you

      big-honk and how did they get that money? honk-enraged How did they get the fucking money mf? honk

      • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Your post is a pretty good example of what I don’t like about Hexbear (and also Lemmygrad because they do the same shit). Clearly the other person has a misconception. It’s a chance to educate people on what the class conflict between proletariat and bourgeoisie actually is (spoiler, it’s not about money). And what do you do instead? Antagonizing trolling to completely shut the door on having any constructive discussion, while also misrepresenting class conflict thus perpetuating the same original misconception. I literally cannot think of a worse response than the one you gave. You’ve done an absolute disservice to the very ideology you follow.

        • SootyChimney [any]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          I’m genuinely curious as to why you think this is trolling? A serious point is being made.

          She concisely made a very important point that is absolutely the central underpinning of class relations: “How do rich people get their money?”. And to continue the constructive discussion, the original poster only need answer the question “how did they get that money”. Finding the answer to that question alone is justification for class war. She also put in some cute goose emojis which are just cool.

          • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            It is a serious point, presented as two antagonistic questions and some “cute goose emojis”. So you really think the presentation of that point was correct? We’re making a serious point that we then litter with duck emojis and instead of explaining the point we, in a roundabout way, say to figure it out yourself.

            • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              How dare you respond to that person calling you a baby killer with anything but sober dry rhetoric. How dare you try to have any fun. I want a divorce.

          • hypelightfly@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            First a troll then a gaslighting defender. No point was made, but there were direct insults.

            big-honk and how did they get that money? honk-enraged How did they get the fucking money mf? honk

        • 10nica [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Your point is well taken, but some of us are more directly impacted by the state of the system. It’s not difficult to find posts from unhoused members, it wasn’t difficult on reddit even… Some of us no longer have the luxury of civility.

          • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            Some not having the luxury of civility doesn’t justify allowing them disrupt civil discourse. In the end it’s your community and those people represent that community. It should be your community’s responsibility to moderate this lack of civility instead of trying to justify it to others, because that justification simply ends up stating that your community is uncivil and you’re okay with it. It shouldn’t come as a surprise then if other communities decide they don’t want to deal with this lack of civility.

            • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Glass motherfucking houses

              You specifically acting haughty about morality and discourse is nauseating. An instance of nothing but crybullies finding themselves in a minority for the first time.

                • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  You understand the concept of a crybully, right? You’re not being harassed, you’re being scolded. You would have to have not started shit in the first place in order to be harassed.

                  • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    AFAIK as I know you started shit with me so what do you want? Harass me?

            • 10nica [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              “[violence] is the language of the unheard.” I won’t engage further on whether it’s generally ok or not because I understand this thread is for lemm.ee to discuss and decide, and I don’t want to get in the way of that too much. Just wanted to clarify the place some of these comments come from, in that most of us are desperate for change and will sometimes be “uncivil” in our desperation. That’s all.

              Our mods and admins are revising our rules to be better lemmyverse netizens. Hope y’all decide to stay federated, but otherwise… Have a good one…? haha idk

        • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          If you can’t get over minor shit like this light ribbing then maybe you should enclose yourself in a bubble. And I mean literal bubble wrap.

          You LITERALLY can’t think of a worse response. Really.

          • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            And then your community wonders why others want to defederate you. No substance beyond trying to antagonize me.

            • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Oh we know why people want to defederate with us. We know better than you do yourselves. And we have absolutely nothing but scorn for you over it.

              Getting called out for it infuriates you and drives you to behave like this. And frankly this shit would get you banned in our sub within a month if you kept it up.

              You have no right to complain about being antagonized when you act with nothing but smarmy bad faith. After being so fucking dramatic in your acting out that bad faith.

          • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            If you’ve read Das Kapital you’d know that Marx doesn’t have an issue with money. If my own labor makes me a billion dollars and I spend that billion on what I need for life then Marx wouldn’t have an issue with that, because the money retains its use value and remains in circulation. The issue lies in capital and Marx goes to great lengths to distinguish capital from just money. I hope I don’t have to explain that difference to you.

          • hypelightfly@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            @sunaurus

            More calls false nazi accusations and calls for executions from a hexbear user. These are their true colors and their admins were gaslighting you. They support this and certainly won’t be banning this user.