Not agreeing with each other is not a reason to dismiss an entire way of thinking. Look at us! Two atheists disagreeing!
There is an important difference, though.
We base our opinions, thoughts, perspectives, and experiences on worldly happenings, observable truths, testable hypothesis, etc.
Religious worldview and “rules” are governed by the same text and same governing body (i.e. the Vatican in the case of Catholics), so they should be on par 100%. A Catholic Church on one street should have the same worldview as the Catholic Church down the street from them, or the one an entire state over.
If they don’t, they are either making up their own interpretations of the same text, doing whatever because it’s convenient for them, or they don’t take their religion seriously enough.
I mean, if they literally believe that God gave them a set of rules to live by, or that God appointed someone to interpret those rules for them, then changing those rules would be failing their test of faith; which is critical, since faith is perhaps the most important thing that God wants out of them, second to begging for forgiveness.
That’s why the idea of religion and religious organizations is silly beyond belief.
There can be many interpretations of all texts, including both religious and scientific texts. Those multiple interpretations come from being different people with different backgrounds, experiences, and cultural upbringing - rather than convenience or zealotry by necessity.
Scientists read the same texts, and study the same subjects all the time and come to different conclusions and that’s seen as a positive - arguably because the only way to deeply understand anything is from multiple perspectives. Some of the most important scientific breakthroughs happen when alternatives to deeply established ideas emerge.
Religious folks believe a whole diversity of things, just like atheists and scientific folks do.
We don’t need to argue the legitimacy of atheism as a position by making science into something it’s not - namely an unbiased, entirely monolithic, entirely perfect way of understanding the world.
Religion is not silly, its sets of cultural practices and beliefs that a huge majority of the population finds meaningful in some way - and for that reason deserves some form of respect even by non religious folks. Religion isn’t the problem. Many forms of dominant religious practice, however, have shown to have real, human, social, and environmental harms. That’s the problem.
There can be many interpretations of all texts, including both religious and scientific texts. Those multiple interpretations come from being different people with different backgrounds, experiences, and cultural upbringing - rather than convenience or zealotry by necessity.
The biggest difference, however, is that you can test a scientific interpretation, repeat a study, etc. You can be proven wrong or validated as right.
But with religion, there are no checks and balances. You are quite literally able to make up whatever interpretation you like, and you’d be neither right nor wrong. This is a massive conflict of what (organized) religion is.
You see, it really doesn’t make any sense that the literal word of god would even need to be interpreted, since it should be clear as day for all to understand. At least, that’s what I’d expect out of an all powerful god. And if enough people are misinterpreting the text, well, Mr. Bossman needs to come down and sort that shit out, right?
Scientists read the same texts, and study the same subjects all the time and come to different conclusions and that’s seen as a positive - arguably because the only way to deeply understand anything is from multiple perspectives. Some of the most important scientific breakthroughs happen when alternatives to deeply established ideas emerge.
Again, if God himself says “X is true”, there is absolutely no room for re-interpretation or a change in perspective. In science, it’s EXPECTED and WELCOMED that theories will evolve, be improved, be found to be wrong, be found to have more evidence in support of it, etc.
For example, if X religion states that gays are bad, then you’d either have to believe that as the word of god, or ignore it.
If you ignore it, then do you really have faith in that religion? Of course not.
But if you choose to follow that belief, even if it goes against what you know to be true, then it makes you look foolish.
The biggest difference is that science is a religion that questions itself while every other religion explicitly don’t want you to question it.
Science actively seeks out being wrong because if you arrive at a point where no one can disagree with a conclusion, you may have arrived at the truth.
Plenty of religions self-question. And scientists are just as prone to getting stuck in their opinions and trying to suppress dissenters as any other human. Anyone with knowledge of scientific history should see that.
The biggest difference, however, is that you can test a scientific interpretation, repeat a study, etc. You can be proven wrong or validated as right.
As it turns out, not all the time. In fact, not even all that frequently. Popper criticized the idea of verification, Kuhn criticized the idea of falsification, and neither idea solves the demarcation (between science and non-science) problem. For a quick reference that won’t require a number of books, try this.
You see, it really doesn’t make any sense…
It doesn’t make sense to you based on what your ideas of legitimate knowledge are - and you’re making some major generalizations about how religion operates. For some religions there is a monotheistic deity, and for some of those religions the word of that deity is immutable law. But even in those cases, there is significant debate over what exactly constitutes the “word of God” - I mean, it’s why there’s so many different sects and factions (and even those argue internally). Just like in science, there are different interpretations of our observed world, and some interpretations become more dominant than others - and not always because they best align with our observations of the physical world.
No, it actually makes no sense that a relgion can simultaneously believe that the earth is 6000 years old AND that it’s billions of years old based on how they interpret canon.
I was raised Catholic, and still can’t believe the absolute absurdity that grownups are telling themselves with absolute convict that they know the true word of the lord. It’s as sad as it is hilarious.
it’s why there’s so many different sects and factions
No, the OP explains that, and it’s because these religions are all bullshit and based on bullshit. Of the hundreds of Christian denominations, which is right? One of them? All of them? Some of them? None of them?
If there is disagreement about things that should be crystal clear, who’s right? And who gives them the authority to “be right”? To them, only god knows the Truth, so any reinterpretation would be false by default.
No, it actually makes no sense that a relgion can simultaneously believe that the earth is 6000 years old AND that it’s billions of years old based on how they interpret canon.
Again, to you. That makes sense to the people who do believe that. It’s just simply that you have - literally - different ways of making sense.
The OP on this thread only says “That’s a 100% true observations. Most religions can’t even agree with themselves.” and I’m (being a giant pain in the ass and) responding specifically to your emphasis that it is this disagreement that invalidates religious thought. I still hold that there’s no issue with disagreement within or among religious groups, in terms of the validity of their worldviews.
Religions have come up with ways of determining who is “right” under various conditions of dispute, just as science and other fields (like law), have. I am by no means a Catholic scholar, but I am very much under the impression that the religious texts Christianity are based on require translation efforts, and that those translation efforts can lose meaning in translation, not just between languages but between historical contexts - like many other historical texts. As such, they require study and interpretation - something that even those most fervent and uneducated of followers seem to understand.
There are disagreements about details, but there are no disagreements about the basics. For instance although Newton is replaced by Relativity, but Newton is still good enough for 99.99% of gravitational computations.
Christians want biologists to seem in disagreement about evolution, because they think that makes their creation nonsense more plausible.
But in reality 90% of biologists agree on 90% of how evolution works. Compare that to religions, where you don’t have anything similar, even within the same religion. The new pope doesn’t even agree with the old pope, on how many children a priest is allowed to molest, before going to the police.
My point being is that scientists disagree with each other as much as religious groups disagree with each other. Disagreement within a group isn’t a valid reason to dismiss that group’s ideas, nor should we treat it as such.
Religions are as coherent and formal as scientific disciplines, if not even more so in many cases, especially within the same religion/tradition.
Would you then turn around and say that an entire scientific discipline is bunk simply because the outgoing president of an academic association disagreed with or had different views from the incoming president?
I agree with you that some religious folks argue in bad faith/polemics, and one of their tactics is to highlight the fact that science is not a monolith. I see that as a science communication problem, not as a reason to pretend that science actually is monolithic. It’s tremendously important to embrace the ways in which science could change, the ways that science is intended to be flexible, the ways that science actually produces a kind of knowledge among other ways of producing knowledge. But it’s silly to proclaim science as the only way of knowing things in the world, and then to say that it’s entirely (or even mostly) internally consistent and without debate. Science is debate.
Religions are as coherent and formal as scientific disciplines,
That’s just decidedly false.
Would you then turn around and say that an entire scientific discipline is bunk simply because the outgoing president of an academic association disagreed with or had different views from the incoming president?
If it was just personal opinions without evidence they just pulled out their behinds then yes absolutely.
Even ignoring the fact that Western science has roots in Catholicism, seems to me like most religions are fairly explicit about what they believe, and generally agree on what those beliefs are. The biggest religions in the world seem to have quite a bit of hierarchy and structure, with enough organization and agreement to produce large-scale structures and institutions. Sure there are disagreements - but those disagreements, again, are no reason to discount religion as a whole.
If it was just personal opinions without evidence they just pulled out their behinds then yes absolutely.
So again you’ve proved my point. It’s not the disagreement you have a problem with, it’s something else entirely.
I mean, scientifically this is a hypothesis that there is no way of proving. It’s theoretically possible there is a god or gods that whispered in someone’s ear to set up a particular religion and would do the same again if all the religions are wiped out. Competing religions doesn’t disprove that, it would just mean those people didn’t hear the whisper (or maybe misunderstood it). This statement is literally impossible to prove or disprove (without lots of genocide and record destroying).
If we’re gonna base ourselves on science, we should actually follow its rules.
There absolutely are rules that apply across fields. One of them is coming up with a hypothesis and then testing that hypothesis and not accepting it as fact until it’s been tested, proven, re-proven, and peer reviewed. That’s the basis of science.
I agree with you, there are rules, they are vaguely followed by most scientific disciplines, but in practice those rules play out very differently across different contexts. See: Knorr-Cetina’s Epistemic Cultures
Have you even read the source you linked? I am getting heavy, heavy bad faith argumentation from you. Either you truly don’t understand what is being said here or you are arguing in bad faith.
Yeah, I know you’re getting bad faith vibes, I get it. No. Fellow athiest, overly educated, social scientist and critical theorist. I’ve read all of my sources - but I’ll admit that one of them (whatever Christian site I liked to) was a quick skim to confirm that yes, this was a long discussion about the different factions and their disagreements, and that was exactly the point I was looking to make.
The original post - the image itself - demonstrates a genuine lack of understanding of the history and philosophy of science. I’ve cited Fleck elsewhere in the comments. It’s just a meme community, I can let that slide.
The comments that seem to be suggesting that disagreement among members of a religion is sufficient to dismiss their ideas is, however, more worrying. Disagreements and their resolutions (or lack thereof) are key features of scientific discovery - we need diverse perspectives, we need people who disagree, we need people who argue their positions in compelling and challenging ways. To call out those disagreements as epistemic flaws in contrast to science dismisses the incredible importance of disagreement and controversy in not just science but in all areas of human and social life.
As I’ve said elsewhere in the comments - both science and religion are messy, problematic, lack internal consistency, and have caused great human and environmental harms. That doesn’t mean science isn’t useful, and science isn’t diminished by our frank discussion of it.
edit: reviewer @fkn has requested a revision of paragraph two, and the author acknowledges that all of the above was written in haste (and surrounded by loud children)
*edit 2: apologies, I was replying from my inbox, didn’t get the context. Yes, I’ve read Epistemic Cultures on many, many occasions, and probably have suggested others read it as many times.
After reading another thread you are commenting on, I am inclined to give you a second chance at your post. Go ahead and re-read that absolutely garbage second paragraph and try again.
The same science has happened in two places at once before. Lots of people rush to publish to avoid getting scooped.
Religion is just fiction, so this has not happened there. Heck, Joseph Smith couldn’t even invent his religion twice without messing things up.
Maybe not precisely the same as the quote, but it’s pretty similar. If there was a true religion, you’d expect it to have happened many times identically all over the world.
It sounds like you haven’t studied the broader fabric of religion much. There are fundamental principles that do indeed pop up in unrelated systems, at least as unrelated as the scientific examples you refer to. That doesn’t prove it’s true, just that this is an argument built on fallacy. Any differences that exist would just be part of scientific experimentation, so to speak.
That’s a 100% true observations. Most religions can’t even agree with themselves.
Not even churches within the same religion can agree! That’s why some fly LGBTQ+ flags, while others condemn gay people to hell.
Not agreeing with each other is not a reason to dismiss an entire way of thinking. Look at us! Two atheists disagreeing!
There is an important difference, though.
We base our opinions, thoughts, perspectives, and experiences on worldly happenings, observable truths, testable hypothesis, etc.
Religious worldview and “rules” are governed by the same text and same governing body (i.e. the Vatican in the case of Catholics), so they should be on par 100%. A Catholic Church on one street should have the same worldview as the Catholic Church down the street from them, or the one an entire state over.
If they don’t, they are either making up their own interpretations of the same text, doing whatever because it’s convenient for them, or they don’t take their religion seriously enough.
I mean, if they literally believe that God gave them a set of rules to live by, or that God appointed someone to interpret those rules for them, then changing those rules would be failing their test of faith; which is critical, since faith is perhaps the most important thing that God wants out of them, second to begging for forgiveness.
That’s why the idea of religion and religious organizations is silly beyond belief.
There can be many interpretations of all texts, including both religious and scientific texts. Those multiple interpretations come from being different people with different backgrounds, experiences, and cultural upbringing - rather than convenience or zealotry by necessity.
Scientists read the same texts, and study the same subjects all the time and come to different conclusions and that’s seen as a positive - arguably because the only way to deeply understand anything is from multiple perspectives. Some of the most important scientific breakthroughs happen when alternatives to deeply established ideas emerge.
Religious folks believe a whole diversity of things, just like atheists and scientific folks do.
We don’t need to argue the legitimacy of atheism as a position by making science into something it’s not - namely an unbiased, entirely monolithic, entirely perfect way of understanding the world.
Religion is not silly, its sets of cultural practices and beliefs that a huge majority of the population finds meaningful in some way - and for that reason deserves some form of respect even by non religious folks. Religion isn’t the problem. Many forms of dominant religious practice, however, have shown to have real, human, social, and environmental harms. That’s the problem.
The biggest difference, however, is that you can test a scientific interpretation, repeat a study, etc. You can be proven wrong or validated as right.
But with religion, there are no checks and balances. You are quite literally able to make up whatever interpretation you like, and you’d be neither right nor wrong. This is a massive conflict of what (organized) religion is.
You see, it really doesn’t make any sense that the literal word of god would even need to be interpreted, since it should be clear as day for all to understand. At least, that’s what I’d expect out of an all powerful god. And if enough people are misinterpreting the text, well, Mr. Bossman needs to come down and sort that shit out, right?
Again, if God himself says “X is true”, there is absolutely no room for re-interpretation or a change in perspective. In science, it’s EXPECTED and WELCOMED that theories will evolve, be improved, be found to be wrong, be found to have more evidence in support of it, etc.
For example, if X religion states that gays are bad, then you’d either have to believe that as the word of god, or ignore it.
If you ignore it, then do you really have faith in that religion? Of course not.
But if you choose to follow that belief, even if it goes against what you know to be true, then it makes you look foolish.
Some religions also believe in evolving theology from our perspective. Even some Christian ones.
The biggest difference is that science is a religion that questions itself while every other religion explicitly don’t want you to question it.
Science actively seeks out being wrong because if you arrive at a point where no one can disagree with a conclusion, you may have arrived at the truth.
Plenty of religions self-question. And scientists are just as prone to getting stuck in their opinions and trying to suppress dissenters as any other human. Anyone with knowledge of scientific history should see that.
As it turns out, not all the time. In fact, not even all that frequently. Popper criticized the idea of verification, Kuhn criticized the idea of falsification, and neither idea solves the demarcation (between science and non-science) problem. For a quick reference that won’t require a number of books, try this.
It doesn’t make sense to you based on what your ideas of legitimate knowledge are - and you’re making some major generalizations about how religion operates. For some religions there is a monotheistic deity, and for some of those religions the word of that deity is immutable law. But even in those cases, there is significant debate over what exactly constitutes the “word of God” - I mean, it’s why there’s so many different sects and factions (and even those argue internally). Just like in science, there are different interpretations of our observed world, and some interpretations become more dominant than others - and not always because they best align with our observations of the physical world.
No, it actually makes no sense that a relgion can simultaneously believe that the earth is 6000 years old AND that it’s billions of years old based on how they interpret canon.
I was raised Catholic, and still can’t believe the absolute absurdity that grownups are telling themselves with absolute convict that they know the true word of the lord. It’s as sad as it is hilarious.
No, the OP explains that, and it’s because these religions are all bullshit and based on bullshit. Of the hundreds of Christian denominations, which is right? One of them? All of them? Some of them? None of them?
If there is disagreement about things that should be crystal clear, who’s right? And who gives them the authority to “be right”? To them, only god knows the Truth, so any reinterpretation would be false by default.
Again, to you. That makes sense to the people who do believe that. It’s just simply that you have - literally - different ways of making sense.
The OP on this thread only says “That’s a 100% true observations. Most religions can’t even agree with themselves.” and I’m (being a giant pain in the ass and) responding specifically to your emphasis that it is this disagreement that invalidates religious thought. I still hold that there’s no issue with disagreement within or among religious groups, in terms of the validity of their worldviews.
Religions have come up with ways of determining who is “right” under various conditions of dispute, just as science and other fields (like law), have. I am by no means a Catholic scholar, but I am very much under the impression that the religious texts Christianity are based on require translation efforts, and that those translation efforts can lose meaning in translation, not just between languages but between historical contexts - like many other historical texts. As such, they require study and interpretation - something that even those most fervent and uneducated of followers seem to understand.
Come on, get out. Scientific disciplines can’t agree within themselves, scientific disciplines don’t agree with each other.
There are disagreements about details, but there are no disagreements about the basics. For instance although Newton is replaced by Relativity, but Newton is still good enough for 99.99% of gravitational computations.
Christians want biologists to seem in disagreement about evolution, because they think that makes their creation nonsense more plausible.
But in reality 90% of biologists agree on 90% of how evolution works. Compare that to religions, where you don’t have anything similar, even within the same religion. The new pope doesn’t even agree with the old pope, on how many children a priest is allowed to molest, before going to the police.
My point being is that scientists disagree with each other as much as religious groups disagree with each other. Disagreement within a group isn’t a valid reason to dismiss that group’s ideas, nor should we treat it as such.
Religions are as coherent and formal as scientific disciplines, if not even more so in many cases, especially within the same religion/tradition.
Would you then turn around and say that an entire scientific discipline is bunk simply because the outgoing president of an academic association disagreed with or had different views from the incoming president?
I agree with you that some religious folks argue in bad faith/polemics, and one of their tactics is to highlight the fact that science is not a monolith. I see that as a science communication problem, not as a reason to pretend that science actually is monolithic. It’s tremendously important to embrace the ways in which science could change, the ways that science is intended to be flexible, the ways that science actually produces a kind of knowledge among other ways of producing knowledge. But it’s silly to proclaim science as the only way of knowing things in the world, and then to say that it’s entirely (or even mostly) internally consistent and without debate. Science is debate.
That’s just decidedly false.
If it was just personal opinions without evidence they just pulled out their behinds then yes absolutely.
Even ignoring the fact that Western science has roots in Catholicism, seems to me like most religions are fairly explicit about what they believe, and generally agree on what those beliefs are. The biggest religions in the world seem to have quite a bit of hierarchy and structure, with enough organization and agreement to produce large-scale structures and institutions. Sure there are disagreements - but those disagreements, again, are no reason to discount religion as a whole.
So again you’ve proved my point. It’s not the disagreement you have a problem with, it’s something else entirely.
I mean, scientifically this is a hypothesis that there is no way of proving. It’s theoretically possible there is a god or gods that whispered in someone’s ear to set up a particular religion and would do the same again if all the religions are wiped out. Competing religions doesn’t disprove that, it would just mean those people didn’t hear the whisper (or maybe misunderstood it). This statement is literally impossible to prove or disprove (without lots of genocide and record destroying).
If we’re gonna base ourselves on science, we should actually follow its rules.
Science is not some monolithic set of rules applied in the same way across all fields.
There absolutely are rules that apply across fields. One of them is coming up with a hypothesis and then testing that hypothesis and not accepting it as fact until it’s been tested, proven, re-proven, and peer reviewed. That’s the basis of science.
I agree with you, there are rules, they are vaguely followed by most scientific disciplines, but in practice those rules play out very differently across different contexts. See: Knorr-Cetina’s Epistemic Cultures
Have you even read the source you linked? I am getting heavy, heavy bad faith argumentation from you. Either you truly don’t understand what is being said here or you are arguing in bad faith.
Yeah, I know you’re getting bad faith vibes, I get it. No. Fellow athiest, overly educated, social scientist and critical theorist. I’ve read all of my sources - but I’ll admit that one of them (whatever Christian site I liked to) was a quick skim to confirm that yes, this was a long discussion about the different factions and their disagreements, and that was exactly the point I was looking to make.
The original post - the image itself - demonstrates a genuine lack of understanding of the history and philosophy of science. I’ve cited Fleck elsewhere in the comments. It’s just a meme community, I can let that slide.
The comments that seem to be suggesting that disagreement among members of a religion is sufficient to dismiss their ideas is, however, more worrying. Disagreements and their resolutions (or lack thereof) are key features of scientific discovery - we need diverse perspectives, we need people who disagree, we need people who argue their positions in compelling and challenging ways. To call out those disagreements as epistemic flaws in contrast to science dismisses the incredible importance of disagreement and controversy in not just science but in all areas of human and social life.
As I’ve said elsewhere in the comments - both science and religion are messy, problematic, lack internal consistency, and have caused great human and environmental harms. That doesn’t mean science isn’t useful, and science isn’t diminished by our frank discussion of it.
edit: reviewer @fkn has requested a revision of paragraph two, and the author acknowledges that all of the above was written in haste (and surrounded by loud children)
*edit 2: apologies, I was replying from my inbox, didn’t get the context. Yes, I’ve read Epistemic Cultures on many, many occasions, and probably have suggested others read it as many times.
After reading another thread you are commenting on, I am inclined to give you a second chance at your post. Go ahead and re-read that absolutely garbage second paragraph and try again.
Edited and responded to. Was also busy with a larger response.
The same science has happened in two places at once before. Lots of people rush to publish to avoid getting scooped.
Religion is just fiction, so this has not happened there. Heck, Joseph Smith couldn’t even invent his religion twice without messing things up.
Maybe not precisely the same as the quote, but it’s pretty similar. If there was a true religion, you’d expect it to have happened many times identically all over the world.
It sounds like you haven’t studied the broader fabric of religion much. There are fundamental principles that do indeed pop up in unrelated systems, at least as unrelated as the scientific examples you refer to. That doesn’t prove it’s true, just that this is an argument built on fallacy. Any differences that exist would just be part of scientific experimentation, so to speak.