• redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    I just realised I was talking to two people and edited my comment.

    My other points still stand. Youā€™ve proved my point: there isnā€™t a ā€˜rightā€™ answer, thereā€™s only, like always, a class-based answer. If you believe the ruling class you reach one conclusion. If not, you reach a different conclusion.

    Itā€™s up to you which side you find more authoritative. For me, Iā€™m skeptical of every word that leaves the mouths or pens of people who keep the working class oppressed and living in shit conditions.

    • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      You could always ask the people who lived there during that era, which is what Iā€™ve done. I live in one of those countries. I know how my parents and grandparents lived during the soviet era. I know how my wifes parents and grandparents lived. Iā€™ve had discussions about the union with people who actually lived in the union. My opinion isnā€™t some ā€œchoose which class answer you likeā€, itā€™s based on what people actually went through during that period. If you want to believe whatever youā€™ve read on the internet go ahead, but the truth from the actual proletariats (because none of them were capitalists, otherwise Iā€™d not be talking to you as my grandparents or parents would be in Siberia, probably dead) is far from what you people here want to believe. None of them had anything good to say about the union. None of them wanted the union and once they were in the union at no point (until the very end) did they have an option to not be in the union.

      • GaryLeChat@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        While I believe that people had differing opinions (they always do), I find it hard to accept that your anecdotal evidence speaks for all of the Baltic states populations that lived under the USSR.

        By reducing everyoneā€™s arguments against you to, ā€œyou just read what you did on the internet, I talked to real people therefore my argument is more validā€, the stance that youā€™re trying to take is not rooted in good faith.

        Perhaps being able to cite surveys or census data, or at least some form of statistic, would add some foundation to your argument.

      • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        If you talk to certain people in my country, theyā€™ll tell that neoliberalism has been a success because it lifted their standard of living. It doesnā€™t make what they say generally true.

        Lucky for you, your loved ones survived the shock therapy implemented from the 90s onwards. Then do a survey of the people who didnā€™t survive. Or who had to leave. Or who were trafficked. Or who were bombed by NATO. Or whose shipyards and factories were asset stripped. Then speak to the people who lived under the Tsar or the Nazis or whoever else preceded the Soviets. Then find some people in Ukraine and Russia, who were comrades until the 90s, and ask them what itā€™s been like in the slow, violent aftermath of letting the capitalists back in.

        because none of them were capitalists, otherwise Iā€™d not be talking to you as my grandparents or parents would be in Siberia, probably dead

        Except if that followed logically, then who was it who took the post-Soviet states into capitalism? Not to mention that the fact that they survived leaves open the possibility that if they were ā€˜capitalistsā€™ through that time, that ā€˜capitalistsā€™ might not have probably died in Siberia.

        Look, Iā€™m not saying the USSR was perfect. Iā€™m not saying I have a perfect understanding of the USSR. Iā€™m saying you need to understand that whether itā€™s explicit or subconscious, you are doing a class analysis by virtue of living in a class society. Most of your information is shaped by the ruling class, which controls the production and distribution of knowledge. Itā€™s the same for the people youā€™re going to talk to. You canā€™t escape it. The ruling ideas of the epoch are the ideas of the ruling class. Individual anecdotes based on an insignificant sample size of respondents doesnā€™t change anything.

        • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Lucky for you, your loved ones survived the shock therapy implemented from the 90s onwards. Then do a survey of the people who didnā€™t survive. Or who had to leave. Or who were trafficked. Or who were bombed by NATO. Or whose shipyards and factories were asset stripped. Then speak to the people who lived under the Tsar or the Nazis or whoever else preceded the Soviets. Then find some people in Ukraine and Russia, who were comrades until the 90s, and ask them what itā€™s been like in the slow, violent aftermath of letting the capitalists back in.

          Well clearly also lucky for me to not have my ancestors be deported to Siberia. Soviet union did not come without costs either. Radical change will always have negative aspects. Ushering in socialism could arguably be considered just as violent as letting capitalism back in.

          Except if that followed logically, then who was it who took the post-Soviet states into capitalism? Not to mention that the fact that they survived leaves open the possibility that if they were ā€˜capitalistsā€™ through that time, that ā€˜capitalistsā€™ might not have probably died in Siberia.

          So we can say the USSR failed to create socialism? Because after half a century of the ā€œdictatorship of the proletariatā€ the bourgeoisie still existed in those countries as none of them stayed socialist after the collapse.

          Look, Iā€™m not saying the USSR was perfect. Iā€™m not saying I have a perfect understanding of the USSR. Iā€™m saying you need to understand that whether itā€™s explicit or subconscious, you are doing a class analysis by virtue of living in a class society. Most of your information is shaped by the ruling class, which controls the production and distribution of knowledge. Itā€™s the same for the people youā€™re going to talk to. You canā€™t escape it. The ruling ideas of the epoch are the ideas of the ruling class. Individual anecdotes based on an insignificant sample size of respondents doesnā€™t change anything.

          The people I talked to, their ruling class for the majority of their life was the ā€œproletariatā€ class. Their point of view of the world didnā€™t magically change after the union collapsed and capitalism was introduced. If they canā€™t be trusted to give accurate insight into how the world was back then then who can you trust?

          • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            Well clearly also lucky for me to not have my ancestors be deported to Siberia.

            Or your ancestors were just among the vast majority of peopleā€”who were not deported to Siberia. Perhaps they were even supportive enough of the Soviet project that they were happy to live in it without rebelling so much that they would be punished.

            Soviet union did not come without costs either. Radical change will always have negative aspects. Ushering in socialism could arguably be considered just as violent as letting capitalism back in.

            Yes. This is not controversial. The question is, why? (The answer is because capitalists will never willingly let socialists take power and will do everything possible to stop socialists from succeeding.)

            So we can say the USSR failed to create socialism?

            Considering the USSR doesnā€™t exist and the world is not socialist, I donā€™t think itā€™s controversial to say the USSR failed to create socialism. They succeeded in implementing a socialist experiment and brought underdeveloped and war torn parts of Europe to a position there they could compete on an equal footing with the most advanced capitalist countries.

            They also helped bring about an end to colonialism and weā€™re so successful the advanced capitalist states had to implement a welfare state to prevent revolutions in the imperial core.

            If they canā€™t be trusted to give accurate insight into how the world was back then then who can you trust?

            They can be trusted to give an account based on a memory of things that happened over 30 years ago, based on their own experience, their class position during and after the USSR, all influenced by folk knowledge and propaganda by Soviets and capitalists. Their view is valid data. But it is not universal data. There is no such thing.

            There are few sources that I would ā€˜trustā€™ on their face. Oral history, ethnography, and auto-ethnography have their uses, but they have limitations. Such accounts must be understood in their political economic context.

            • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Alright, what would be thing that would change your mind? Iā€™m just going to focus it down to Estonia so it there would be less vagueness over the baltics (because they are still 3 different countries with different historical backgrounds). What would it take for you to believe that Estonia did not want to be in the union and couldnā€™t willingly leave the union?

              • Clearly itā€™s not the fact that on the precipice of WW2 Estonia wanted to be neutral, which also means not wanting to be in the soviet union.
              • Itā€™s also clearly not the fact that post-collapse Estonia designated that period as a period of foreign occupation
              • Itā€™s obviously also not the fact that Estonia was forcibly manipulated to join the Union in the first place.
              • Nor the fact that someone living in that country is telling you that the people living here didnā€™t want to live in the union.
              • I doubt the survey showing the vast majority didnā€™t see the collapse as a bad thing would change your mind
              • How about the secret protocol of MRP where the Soviet Union clearly states Estonia will be in their sphere of influence. And thatā€™s regardless of what Estonia thinks on the matter.

              So really, what is the missing part of proof that would change your mind? Why do you believe the opposite in the first place?

              • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                Alright, what would be thing that would change your mind?

                Rigorous, Marxist research. Please do not take this as a request for you to show me anti-communist literature.

                Why do you believe the opposite in the first place?

                It depends what you mean by ā€˜the oppositeā€™. I think you have misunderstood what Iā€™m saying. Iā€™m not claiming that everybody liked the USSR. So ā€˜the oppositeā€™ is not me accepting that some people disliked the USSR. I already know they didnā€™t and Iā€™m not denying it. Iā€™m saying their view must be put into context, treated to analysis, and understood as a class-based perspective.

                I know that many people did not like the USSR. I know that the proportion of people who did not like the USSR was different in different SSRs. I know that many people suffered in the USSR, some for good reasons and some who didnā€™t deserve it. I know that the USSR made mistakes and that different SSRs made different mistakes. I know that the sum of errors made by the USSR led to itā€™s dissolution.

                More stories that people didnā€™t like the USSR is not a new argument, itā€™s more evidence for an existing, common argument, which I have heard many times and dismissed. Youā€™re making it sound like you think Iā€™ve never read that anti-Soviet narrative. But every single part of my education was anti-communist.

                I started with the anti-communist history, documentaries, survey data, movies, novels, etc, and I found it all lacking in basic requirements of logic and rigour. The anti-communist narrative does not hold up to any of the standards applied to any other idea or subject. This fact should raise alarm bells for anyone who claims to think critically.

                More stories about people surviving and living normal lives in the USSR, even if they disliked the USSR, suggests the opposite of what you think it does. It suggests that not all dissidents were sent to Siberia it treated badly. More stories about this or that SSR that wanted to leave but ā€˜couldnā€™tā€™, suggests the exact opposite of what you claim. If itā€™s proof of anything, given that we know that the USSR ended and that e.g. the Baltics are no longer in the USSR, it proves that SSRs could leave.

                I hold that the USSR was still a success because itā€™s achievements are uncountable. Soviets turned the most backwards country in Europe into the worldā€™s second most powerful superpower in one generation, all without colonialism. Then they liberated the rest of Europe and Asia (supporting China, DPRK, Laos, and Vietnam) from brutal Nazis, fascists, and colonialists. Then they helped liberate much of Africa and parts of Latin America from the same brutal, murderous, terror regimes of western imperialists. There is nothing you could ever say to me that will make me think these were bad things. And I have only scratched the surface of foreign policy.

                Nevermind near universal suffrage, education, housing, healthcare, employment, etc, at home. All at a time when the ā€˜advanced civilisationsā€™ were raping and looting the world to strengthen the west, while their domestic populations didnā€™t have anything close to universal education, housing, employment, healthcare, suffrage, etc. And did everything that people criticise the USSR for but on a much greater and more violent scale.

                So the question is not what would change my mind, because I already have a nuanced and balanced view. The question is what would change your mind?

                What would make you realise that implying that a Union of hundreds of million people, that defeated the Nazis, supported anti-colonial movements, and spanning 70 years, didnā€™t do a single thing right? Because to me, insisting that 6 people and a survey taken at one particular time in one particular place as representative of the facts and experience of all those millions, across a wide geography and several decades isā€¦ itā€™s not rigorous or logical, Iā€™ll say that much.

                • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  Rigorous, Marxist research. Please do not take this as a request for you to show me anti-communist literature.

                  So thatā€™s a roundabout way of saying ā€œno, nothing will change my mindā€. Good to know and this will be the last time I will respond to you, so I will point out the stupidity of some of your statements.

                  It depends what you mean by ā€˜the oppositeā€™. I think you have misunderstood what Iā€™m saying. Iā€™m not claiming that everybody liked the USSR. So ā€˜the oppositeā€™ is not me accepting that some people disliked the USSR. I already know they didnā€™t and Iā€™m not denying it. Iā€™m saying their view must be put into context, treated to analysis, and understood as a class-based perspective.

                  Here youā€™re twisting what I said to say nothing. The opposite of ā€œEstonia did not want to be in the union and couldnā€™t willing leave itā€ is that ā€œEstonia wanted to be in the union and could willing leave itā€. Youā€™re just going off on a tangent to not address the point.

                  More stories about people surviving and living normal lives in the USSR, even if they disliked the USSR, suggests the opposite of what you think it does.

                  Some people can also live a normal life under imperialistic sphere of the US, even if they dislike US. Does that mean it suggests the opposite of your understanding of the US, and by extension capitalism? That capitalism isnā€™t bad?

                  It suggests that not all dissidents were sent to Siberia it treated badly.

                  I know, some were shot on sight, others weā€™re sent to jail to rot. The ones who lived had to keep their nose down to survive.

                  More stories about this or that SSR that wanted to leave but ā€˜couldnā€™tā€™, suggests the exact opposite of what you claim. If itā€™s proof of anything, given that we know that the USSR ended and that e.g. the Baltics are no longer in the USSR, it proves that SSRs could leave.

                  So you believe the SSRs could leave the union because the union stopped existing? By the time those countries could actually vote themselves out of the union the collapse was already inevitable. You acknowledge there was dissent and desire to leave and thatā€™s where my question was, why couldnā€™t they leave before. But youā€™re not interested in answering that because that doesnā€™t suit the idyllic vision you have of the soviet union.

                  I hold that the USSR was still a success because itā€™s achievements are uncountable. Soviets turned the most backwards country in Europe into the worldā€™s second most powerful superpower in one generation, all without colonialism.

                  Guess Nazi Germany was also a success in your book. They turned a crumbling nation into something that was an existential threat even to the USSR, all in one generation, no colonialism and only at fraction of the size of the union.

                  Then they liberated the rest of Europe and Asia (supporting China, DPRK, Laos, and Vietnam) from brutal Nazis, fascists, and colonialists.

                  With the significant help of the good old capitalist America. USSR probably wouldnā€™t have survived the Nazi invasion if not for lend-lease program from America. In Khrushchev memoirs he mentions that Stalin himself said that USSR wouldnā€™t have won without the help from America. The USSR didnā€™t do this liberation on their own and they couldnā€™t have done it without America.

                  Then they helped liberate much of Africa and parts of Latin America from the same brutal, murderous, terror regimes of western imperialists. There is nothing you could ever say to me that will make me think these were bad things. And I have only scratched the surface of foreign policy.

                  I never said they were bad things. But Mr ā€œnuanced and balanced viewā€ here should be able to see how not everything the union did was good just as everything the US does is bad, as I just pointed out US is the reason the USSR didnā€™t lose to Nazi Germany. As is stands their actions in other parts of the world donā€™t invalidate how they oppressed the Baltic states.

                  Nevermind near universal suffrage, education, housing, healthcare, employment, etc, at home. All at a time when the ā€˜advanced civilisationsā€™ were raping and looting the world to strengthen the west, while their domestic populations didnā€™t have anything close to universal education, housing, employment, healthcare, suffrage, etc. And did everything that people criticise the USSR for but on a much greater and more violent scale.

                  Whataboutism.

                  What would make you realise that implying that a Union of hundreds of million people, that defeated the Nazis, supported anti-colonial movements, and spanning 70 years, didnā€™t do a single thing right?

                  Twisting my words again. Never did I say they didnā€™t do a single thing right. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of saying the other SSRs were free and democratic, they werenā€™t.

                  But itā€™s not like youā€™re going to change you mind anyway so feel free to live in your contradictions that youā€™re going to ignore so you could believe the lies you want to believe.

                  • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    So thatā€™s a roundabout way of saying ā€œno, nothing will change my mindā€.

                    No, itā€™s a direct way of saying that you wonā€™t change my mind. I didnā€™t wake up a Marxist one day after hitting my head or eating something spicy.

                    The opposite of ā€œEstonia did not want to be in the union and couldnā€™t willing leave itā€ is that ā€œEstonia wanted to be in the union and could willing leave itā€.

                    I donā€™t recall saying that ā€˜Estoniaā€™ wanted to be in or out the Union. From the beginning, Iā€™ve been saying that some people wanted in and some people wanted out. And Iā€™ve been saying that their position is determined by their class position.

                    Thereā€™s no going off on a tangent. Putting things into their political economic context is a basic element of Marxist analysis.

                    Some people can also live a normal life under imperialistic sphere of the US, even if they dislike US. Does that mean it suggests the opposite of your understanding of the US, and by extension capitalism? That capitalism isnā€™t bad?

                    You have severely misunderstood my argument. Thereā€™s too much to unpack here for me to untangle.

                    doesnā€™t suit the idyllic vision you have of the soviet union.

                    1. Iā€™m a Marxist, i.e. a scientific socialist, who rejects idealism. It is worse than useless for people who want socialism/communism to misdiagnose the problems of the USSR. I have zero interest in an idyllic fairy tale. Which is why I insist on logical and methodological rigour when forming my views about the USSR.
                    2. Have you even been reading what I wrote? Or are you just picking all the bits that you donā€™t like to make yourself angry?

                    Guess Nazi Germany was also a success in your book. They turned a crumbling nation into something that was an existential threat even to the USSR, all in one generation, no colonialism and only at fraction of the size of the union.

                    Are you for real? Is this really how you understand Nazi Germany? After what you said above, Iā€™m not so sure that you are a Nazi sympathiser. Now I think you just donā€™t know what youā€™re talking about. Then again, Nazi sympathisers do like their horseshoe theories to whitewash and minimise the horrors of capitalism.

                    I never said they were bad things.

                    I didnā€™t say that you said these were bad things. I donā€™t recall you saying anything about these things at all and I canā€™t be bothered to scroll back up. I mentioned these things because you asked what would change my mind. And Iā€™m telling you that with these positives on the record, nobody will ever convince me that the USSR was not a net benefit to humanity.

                    to see how not everything the union did was good

                    Please re-read what I said.

                    As is stands their actions in other parts of the world donā€™t invalidate how they oppressed the Baltic states.

                    This is entirely beside the point. Itā€™s you who keeps insisting on the issue. Did you forget that this all started with someone asking why communists are positive about the USSR?

                    Whataboutism.

                    If you ask someone a question about why they think X, you canā€™t cry ā€˜whataboutismā€™ when they list the reasons for thinking X.

                    Twisting my words again. Never did I say they didnā€™t do a single thing right. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of saying the other SSRs were free and democratic, they werenā€™t.

                    I know you didnā€™t say this explicitly. But you did imply it. You came running in to a discussion about why people are positive about the USSR to say that weā€™re all wrong because we havenā€™t considered your tiny bit of evidence that some people didnā€™t like the Union (which we have seen and considered before, albeit in a different format). Your framing implies that our reasons are insignificant in the face of six people and a survey that disagrees.

                    Further, you canā€™t cry ā€˜twisting my wordsā€™ in the same breath as claiming that I said ā€˜the other SSRs were free and democraticā€™ when I didnā€™t say it. It comes off as a bitā€¦ disingenuous.

                    But itā€™s not like youā€™re going to change you mind anyway so feel free to live in your contradictions that youā€™re going to ignore so you could believe the lies you want to believe.

                    Well, I did tell you not to come back at me with anti-communism because you wonā€™t change my mind. Iā€™m not trying to hide that. The real mystery is what made you think you could come into an explicitly communist space and turn people into liberals with an anecdote.

      • Shinhoshi@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        You could always ask the people who lived there during that era, which is what Iā€™ve done.

        All nearly 1.6 million of them? Never mind that hundreds of thousands of people left after the USSRā€™s dissolutionā€¦

        Your family in particular might not be particularly representative, or there might be other context weā€™re missing, such as why they wouldnā€™t want the USSR when it was increasing its peopleā€™s standard of living.