NSFW for: Potentially challanging your narrative and worldview.

I recently found this article summarising important findings.

Breaking out of ones own bubble is important. And I would like you to remember this the next time you are at a ballot.

If you really think of the children, vote according to reality.

And if you FEEL personally attacked by this article and bash me in the comments, whataboutism away from the subject or bothsides-ing the issue; Thanks for making my point for me and seek help.

  • irmoz@reddthat.com
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    1 year ago

    Youā€™re pretending to be a radical enlightened centrist

    What are you talking about? I havenā€™t pretended anything, certainly not that.

    I dont think youā€™ve made points, tbh.

    Iā€™ve made two, which Iā€™ve continued to elaborate on:

    You donā€™t understand the left right spectrum

    You donā€™t understand communism


    You showed me a .png

    Hey! I spent time making that! It roughly describes the left right spectrum. You barely even commented on it.

    deflected moral questions

    Iā€™ve answered your questions dudeā€¦ Wtf are you talking about?

    and deferred to current state power whenever possible

    Um, wtf are you talking about? I keep criticisng state powerā€¦ Are you trolling me?

    If right wing means ā€˜ultra capitalisticā€™, and capitalists dont like paying taxes, would it not be fair to assume that right-systems favor low taxesā€¦

    Yes, and they do. On the rich, anyway.

    Can you fund an excessive, wasteful, state on low taxes? Can you fund sweeping tyranny? This is just syllogistic reasoning. Its not some slippery academic nonsense. Im not appealed by authority.

    Iā€™m not the one saying they actually want low taxes. They just want low taxes for the rich, by using either flat tax or very minor progressive taxing.

    You can say a Commie totally-not-a-state doesnt use money, man.

    Why say ā€œtotally-not-a-stateā€? Now youā€™re the one deferring to state power by assuming itā€™s necessary. And why should it use money if all goods are freely available?

    But it will still exist in a world that does.

    A world that does what? Use money? Well, if weā€™re for some reason assuming this end-stage communism has been reached without a global revolution, then methods can be set up for external trade, assuming this hypothetical communist society hasnā€™t been embargoed by the world for daring to try communism, like has happened to Cuba.

    Or invaded, like Vietnam, Argentina, Chile, etcā€¦

    Scarcity will always exist.

    Who ever said it didnā€™t? But we already possess the capability to feed the world and still have some left over. The issue isnā€™t scarcity, itā€™s economics.

    And thus markets/economies will always exist.

    Economies maybe, but markets arenā€™t inevitable. They havenā€™t always existed.

    Even if theyā€™re black (aka the real free market, lol).

    If youā€™re gonna appeal to the black market as some sort of ideal free market for the world market to aspire to, then I worry that Iā€™ve been taking you far too seriously.

    • Dissasterix @lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Im actually pleased if you did produce the .png yourself :] Barely commented on it? Ive flipped it over because it DOES describe taxation if you assume (correctly) that UltraCapitalists dont like paying taxes and dont want their companies to go public-sector. Im merely reframing your view by making inferences. Simple assumptions.

      You DID deflect questions. Theres some you missed still, but its cool. Weā€™ve had a lot to say. I dont think your a robot (anymore) :] Im on mobile, so forgive me if I dont hit all your comments, too. Also we really should condense to one reply thread. Been here before, makes things easier. Im gon try to wait until you reply to my last to make it happen.

      I am a Libertarian, not an anarchist. I like the idea of a State. They just also happen to suck in practice. Im giving you hell about Communism but I have criticisms of ā€˜Neo-Libralismā€™ and cuckservatives. For instance, if our nation has open borders then how do I still have property rights if Uncle Sam cannot establish their own rights to property! How can I enjoy my (positive) liberty when the dollar is failing to poor economic planning?! And so on. Technically this will make me a statist, sure. But given the need to redistribute, AnComns are just a larp. AnCaps almost make sense, but its squirrely.

      I agree foreign intervention is fucked up and beyond the scope of what our nation was intended to achieve. Retaliation? Maybe, but only if Congress approves and the budget isnt skyhigh. However I go even farther. US founders specifically warned of ā€˜estranged and entangling foreign relations.ā€™ This is describing UN/NATO and so on. Im against those sorts of councils.

      I would like to hear YOU (not wikipedia) explain the difference between markets and economies. I suspect all youā€™ll come up with is scaleā€¦

      We have the ability to feed the world on paper. Heres how you can tell its BS thoughā€¦ We havent worked out water yet. Water is virtually imparishable, comes in 1 flavor, is needed everyday, cannot be deformed, can be transported by static pipesā€¦ But its not done. Imagine how much harder of a problem food is than water. Its incalcuably more difficult.

      Awful things happen in the black market. Human trafficking and hitmen and so on. However it is infact a free market. Most critiques of capitalism come post-robber barron. When the FED was formed. Then blew our load fighting for Europe whoch tanked our finances. So we switched to fiat to fund endless wars and dick with other free peoples. And everyone lives in debt to the banks named after the same robber barrons now. Charming. I would suggest you and I probably never saw a free market.

      For instance: Opening a gas station. Gas prices are set by OPEC. US agencies tell you the tax rates, they tell you all the expensive standards they want you to achieve. Then across the street another gas staion opens up. If you charge way more than him, its ā€˜price gouging.ā€™ Way less, ā€˜predatory prices.ā€™ The same?! ā€˜Price collusion.ā€™ Gas stations net profit in selling chips than gas. ā€œFree market.ā€

      Most ironically, the practice of making gouging/collusion/predatory tactics unlawful is to prevent monopoly. Meanwhile, the oligarchs openly lobby the government.

      • irmoz@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        I would like to hear YOU (not wikipedia) explain the difference between markets and economies. I suspect all youā€™ll come up with is scaleā€¦

        Not just scale, but category. Economy describes the entire flow of goods around a given area. Market is a specific way to distribute goods, that is predicated on competition between sellers to sell goods to consumers. Economies donā€™t necessarily have to be market economies.

        We havent worked out water yet. Water is virtually imparishable, comes in 1 flavor, is needed everyday, cannot be deformed, can be transported by static pipesā€¦ But its not done.

        Because of capitalism. The infrastructure is already there to freely give water to entire nations. But certain people would lose out on money if it were nationalisedā€¦ and those people have lots of money to lobby with.

        Imagine how much harder of a problem food is than water. Its incalcuably more difficult.

        Again, the infrastructure is already there. Itā€™s just not used that way.

        Most critiques of capitalism come post-robber barron

        LOL no. Socialism has been a movement since capitalism began, dude.

        So we switched to fiat to fund endless wars and dick with other free peoples. And everyone lives in debt to the banks named after the same robber barrons now. Charming. I would suggest you and I probably never saw a free market.

        Seems pretty free right now. Ask Jeff Bezes and Elon Musk. Theyā€™re living pretty free.

        Iā€™m not sure why youā€™re not a socialist if you see the problems inherent in capitalism. The core difference between the two is that capitalism is set up to enrich owners of a business, and socialism is set up to enrich the workers. Iā€™m honestly asking, why do you object to that?

        • Dissasterix @lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Pffffffffft! You point to Bezos and Musk as ā€˜free marketā€™ guys yet Bezos in prticular made his monopoly through non-compete practices and Musk through govt subsidy. Bro, plz. These are the oligarchs. Dont put them anywhere near a gas station worker! Further, these are people, not markets. I dontā€¦ I just dont, lmfao.

          Monopoly is not a problem with capitalism, it is a problem with government. Of coure a business seeks to grow/profit. But govt was supposed to protect consumers from monopoly. They didnā€™t. Clearly. Do I blame Bezos/Musk (whom I give $0) or the government that was supposed to protect me (whom I give a significant percentage of net-wealth). Arguably, we would not have our current oligarchs without the collusion between State and corporationā€¦ Whats the word for that again?

          Socialism has existed since capitalism began? So are you calling Communism Socialism now? Do you agree with V. Lenin when he said ā€˜The goal of Socialism is Communism.ā€™? The slope is slippery, lmao.

          Its funny, man. Youā€™ll play appologist for the USSR (re: Holodimur) but then go to say no, it wasnt real Communism. This strikes me as an inconsistency. Its easy to find flaws in things that actually exist ;]

          The infrastructure for water kind of exists in the West. But its also pretty piss-poor. I live near Detroit/Flint. It took ~9yrs to fix the shitty infrastructure. This how I know youā€™re an idealist-- Youā€™re diminishing the seriousness of the differences in the problems. Water is baby-mode compared to food.

          Consider my experience of public services. Roads: Detroit. Schools: Detroit. Living standards: Detroit. Police response: Detroit. Fire response: Detroitā€¦ The public sector is a joke.

          Go back to the very beginning where I mention Thomas Sowell. You have the anoited vision, you think that impossible things can be achieved with enough money (which is tantamount to force). I donā€™t, I think some problems are legitimately impossible by their nature. If you shrug off food shortages and starvation as a ā€˜capitalitsā€™ problem then I know you guys are damned, lol. It IS a hard problem. Try and tell me that itā€™s not.

          You can assure me that I wont get the bullet, but what if Im only gulagā€™d? :p What if youā€™re just some prole and have no say?! People like me are a problem for you guys. Once you get enough FORCE you wont be talking with meā€¦ This talking/pseudo-intellectual phase is merely the boot getting put on the foot. I know, Ill be re-educated and made to say I love the State. Hell, maybe youā€™ll get an extra [widget] if you turn me in ;]

          Im going to go to work, but I would like to make a little consensus between us :] ā€œFuck this bullshit neo-liberalism.ā€ Agreed?

          • irmoz@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            Pffffffffft! You point to Bezos and Musk as ā€˜free marketā€™ guys yet Bezos in prticular made his monopoly through non-compete practices and Musk through govt subsidy. Bro, plz. These are the oligarchs. Dont put them anywhere near a gas station worker! Further, these are people, not markets. I dontā€¦ I just dont, lmfao.

            Yep, thatā€™s the free market in action. What do you think free market capitalism is all about? It means less regulation, more freedom for capitalists to do what they want. And neoliberalism has ensured that capital is completely protected by the state.

            Monopoly is not a problem with capitalism, it is a problem with government. Of coure a business seeks to grow/profit.

            Lmao you literally described the problem of capitalism. ā€œOf course they want to grow!ā€ Yeah - because capitalism. Capitalism requires businesses to seek growth, because otherwise theyā€™d fail. That literally isnā€™t a problem outside of capitalism.

            But govt was supposed to protect consumers from monopoly. They didnā€™t. Clearly. Do I blame Bezos/Musk (whom I give $0) or the government that was supposed to protect me (whom I give a significant percentage of net-wealth). Arguably, we would not have our current oligarchs without the collusion between State and corporationā€¦ Whats the word for that again?

            Neoliberalism? Corruption? Capitalism?

            Socialism has existed since capitalism began? So are you calling Communism Socialism now?

            ā€¦No? Why would one entail the other?

            Do you agree with V. Lenin when he said ā€˜The goal of Socialism is Communism.ā€™? The slope is slippery, lmao.

            Yes, that is the goal of socialism. And what slope do you mean?

            Its funny, man. Youā€™ll play appologist for the USSR (re: Holodimur)

            ā€¦excuse me? Here are my exact words:

            1. The soviet famine was largely the result of natural factors.
            1. It was then worsened considerably by a very slow and negligent response from Stalin.
            1. It affected more than just Ukraine. Kazakhstan and even Russia itself also suffered.
            1. Stalin did send help - but not enough, and it was sent secretly so as not to let the outside world discover the famine.

            In summation, it was far from deliberate, but Stalinā€™s response was cold and insufficient, and cared more about appearances.

            All in all - not very damn communist. Because, surely you know, The USSR was not communist? The first clue is it has a damn state. Thatā€™s a big clue. Iā€™m generally not a big fan of the USSR and the big fuckin state is one of the reasons.

            That is not USSR apologia. That is condemning them for failing to do better.

            but then go to say no, it wasnt real Communism. This strikes me as an inconsistency. Its easy to find flaws in things that actually exist ;]

            But itā€™s not communism. It has a state. Like I said. It was a Marxist-Leninist socialist state. Whereā€™s the inconsistency?

            The infrastructure for water kind of exists in the West. But its also pretty piss-poor.

            So it needs to be improved.

            I live near Detroit/Flint. It took ~9yrs to fix the shitty infrastructure.

            So they need to fucking do better.

            This how I know youā€™re an idealist-- Youā€™re diminishing the seriousness of the differences in the problems.

            No, Iā€™m really not. Iā€™m not calling any of this easy.

            Water is baby-mode compared to food.

            Whatever you say.

            Consider my experience of public services. Roads: Detroit. Schools: Detroit. Living standards: Detroit. Police response: Detroit. Fire response: Detroitā€¦ The public sector is a joke.

            Because neoliberal capitalism insists that the state must stay out of everything, and any service it provides must be put to the market to compete and neutered, because the intention is to remove all public services and leave them to the whims of the market. Neoliberals believe every facet of life must be a competition, and all aid is wasted tax dollars. And when theyā€™re in power, they work hard to make sure this is true and that the public sees it as an inevitable failure of services that inherently canā€™t work, rather than intentional sabotage of critical infrastructure to enrich their cronies.

            This is why the neoliberalism is cancer to society. And capitalism inherently leads to this - capitalism cannot exist without a state to protect its private property. And this relationship develops parasitically until the state is merely an organ for capital to oppress the people.

            Go back to the very beginning where I mention Thomas Sowell. You have the anoited vision, you think that impossible things can be achieved with enough money (which is tantamount to force).

            Thatā€™s an incredibly dishonest representation of socialist theory. I really donā€™t understand how you can think thatā€™s what Iā€™ve said.

            I donā€™t, I think some problems are legitimately impossible by their nature.

            Why? You really havenā€™t explained your view on this. Youā€™ve just said, basically, ā€œit hasnā€™t been done therefore it canā€™t.ā€

            If you shrug off food shortages and starvation as a ā€˜capitalitsā€™ problem then I know you guys are damned, lol.

            Who the fuck is saying that? Itā€™s a multifaceted, complex problem, but capitalism is at the core of it. A few questions:

            What is the actual reason homeless people exist in the richest nations on Earth?

            What is the actual reason millions struggle to feed themselves in said nations?

            What is the actual reason millions have to work for bullshit pay on behalf of the richest corporations in the world?

            It IS a hard problem. Try and tell me that itā€™s not.

            Why do you seem to expect it would be hard for me to say, ā€œthis is a difficult problemā€? What gave you the impression I thought this could be done easily?

            You can assure me that I wont get the bullet, but what if Im only gulagā€™d? :p

            Youā€™re just not taking this seriously. Why am I?

            What if youā€™re just some prole and have no say?!

            The vast majority of us are already proles. It is is who will be leading the revolution. I think you have a distorted view of what communism and socialism are. It is fundamentally democratic, inherently so, led by the people on the ground who are themselves motivated to improve their own conditions for the good of their society.

            People like me are a problem for you guys.

            Stop fantasising that youā€™re some outlaw.

            Once you get enough FORCE you wont be talking with meā€¦

            Why do you say this? Like Iā€™ve said, communism is led by the people. Anything that is led by authoritarian force has no business calling itself communist. Why canā€™t you get past this? Why wonā€™t you learn? Iā€™m really trying here to help you understand. You have to work with me. Just understand Iā€™m not lying to you. Why is that so hard? Youā€™re fundamentally resisting the information Iā€™m giving you.

            This talking/pseudo-intellectual phase is merely the boot getting put on the foot.

            Why call it pseudo-intellectual? Why call it a phase? Why do you think there is some secret master plan for domination?

            Where do you see this in socialist theory? Which socialist writer promoted anything like this?

            Please answer.

            I know, Ill be re-educated and made to say I love the State.

            FFS man. Listen. Communism is stateless. Why wonā€™t you listen?

            Why do you say youā€™ll be re-educated? What state will you be made to love?

            Please answer.

            Hell, maybe youā€™ll get an extra [widget] if you turn me in ;]

            Youā€™re just not listening!!! This is hopeless.

            Im going to go to work, but I would like to make a little consensus between us :] ā€œFuck this bullshit neo-liberalism.ā€ Agreed?

            I donā€™t think thereā€™s anything else weā€™ll agree on. But at least consider what Iā€™m saying isnā€™t a cover for some master plan for world domination. I donā€™t want power. Socialists donā€™t want power vested in any individual or minority of elites. Socialists want workers to have control of their own lives, to be able to choose their work of their own free will, to better society because they truly want to.

            Force is how we labour now. These fears of yours are our current reality. You cannot truly decide how you work or how you live your life. You have options to choose between, but all of these options have been provided for you by the symbiosis of State and capital, and all of these options enrich them at your expense. The only option that doesnā€™t exploit you is not working, and unemployment is deliberately as unappealing and tenuous as possible. Poverty and homelessness are tools of coercion employed by capital to keep you as afraid of unemployment as possible.

            Being forced to love the State? What is the Pledge of Allegiance? What are mandatory holidays commemorating servants of State? What is the pomp and pageantry associated with election campaigns?

            Re-education? What is prison, to which you can be sent for offences as minor as possessing substances for personal use, or peacefully expressing your distaste for the State in public?

            Yes. Fuck neo-liberalism. Fuck the capitalism that birthed it. Fuck the State.

            All power to all the people. Thatā€™s what I want. Thatā€™s what socialists want. Please understand this.