There’s a lot I’d like to discuss about this, and I think it’s important to discuss. I know the subject of veganism or lack thereof can get heated, but I think we need to have these hard conversations if we want to come together as a community with proper solutions for the future.

Hi! I don’t doubt you have the best intentions, but as a vegan I think what you are proposing is still immoral (although obviously much less so than factory farming). I hope that you are willing to have a discussion with me, if not, feel free to say so or just ignore me.

First caveat, I think vegetarianism/veganism for 99-100% of the diet of 99% of the population is a fantastic goal, but I think we need to have solutions for the interim where society is still coming around to the idea.

What do you you think that would take? What would it take for you personally to come around to that idea?

Even people who want the best for the planet and animals might be intimidated by the prospect of veganism or even vegetarianism, whether or not they have sound reason for this.

I agree that it seems very intimidating. It certainly was for me. I could not imagine myself giving up meat, eggs and dairy. However it turned out to be much easier than I expected.

What I think however, is that when we set the long term goal right at where we want to get to, you are still more likely to have a greater impact. This video explains why that is probably more effective, citing scientific research.

While we’re still reliant on animal meat, I think that moving our animal raising from big factory farms into local smallholdings or even our backyards would help immensely.

Are we still reliant on meat? Maybe some people, but I think most people could switch to a healthy plant based diet if they wanted to. We would have a problem if everyone went vegan overnight, but that is not going to happen. As veganism gains in popularity, demand will change as a result, so will supply.

From an environmental perspective, you could argue that factory farming is better because it is more efficient. It has both downsides and upsides compared to backyard/organically raised animals. It would probably be very hard to create a world where backyard animals are accessible to most people.

Quite frankly, I’m hoping to own chickens soon, mostly so I can have fresh/ethical eggs and share the same eggs with my community. But I’m not averse to raising chickens for meat either.

Although the ethical concerns may be more obvious for meat, there are still concerns for eggs. Even from backyard chickens. That has to do with 1) Where do the male chicks go? Are you going to raise those too? Or will you only buy hens, in which case the male chicks are probably killed by the seller of the hens. 2) Chickens have been artificially selected to produce an insane amount of eggs compared to their wild ancestors. This has negative health implications. For example, they often struggle keeping their bones strong because a lot of calcium is needed for the egg shells.

In my eyes, meat should be something you eat as a treat, and only if you can psychologically grapple with how it got to your plate and give due respect to the animal who provided it.

I think this is better than being completely disconnected from the animals. But I would argue that you can’t respectfully kill an animal that does not need to die.

Like you, I just created a community. The idea of mine is to have discussions like this about the ethics over there. !debateavegan@slrpnk.net. If you are interested, maybe we can continue over there since I’m not sure it really fits here.