RIYADH: The death toll from this year's Haj has exceeded 1,000, an AFP tally said Thursday (Jun 20), more than half of whom were unregistered worshippers performing the pilgrimage in extreme heat in Sa
Thats your take, not the take of the people who go there. In your eyes, letting them die is “not caring about them” but in islam, that just means that they will get much better rewards in the hereafter.
In islam, the world is a place of test, not a place where to get justice. You get justice in the hereafter.
I welcome this person to keep trying to convince me that their god is not an asshole for being omnipotent but letting 1000 of his faithful die for doing the specific thing he told them to do, but they’re sure going to have an uphill battle.
I don’t think i can convince/prove to you that he isn’t but my intention is show that you can’t prove he is as well. In the end, you believing him to be an asshole is just that, a belief.
I’m not sure why you think that’s some great revelation. My believing I’m not a brain in a vat dreaming that I’m having a conversation with you is just a belief. I can’t assume anything about anything. It’s all belief.
However, I think I have proved sufficiently that by any moral standard, he would be considered an asshole. You defended it by saying he rewards them more after death.
Like I said, if I stab you in the eye and then give you $1000, I’m still the asshole that stabbed you in the eye.
Similarly, if Allah lets 1000 of his most faithful die agonizingly in the heat while doing what he commands of them but then rewards them later, he’s still the asshole who let them die agonizingly. The reward doesn’t make up for it.
You called Allah an asshole and i just showed you that it is not the objective truth, it is just an opinion.
Your analogy of stabbing in the eye, does not fully apply mainly because you have applied your own limitations on it. If Allah is the creator then he can very easily make the whole process of “eye stabbing” pleasant and painless and then “the stabbed” gets the eternal reward. Which does not sound bad.
Sure from your world view, because you are not omniscient. If Allah chooses to do something it is his decision, we cannot ask for an explanation, at least not in this world because that would make the “test” too easy. And that’s just if we even could understand it, which we most likely can’t.
Of course it’s possible to say someone is an asshole without knowing the “full consequences.” Other than you telling me things you can’t possibly prove, I’ve been given no reason to believe that a supposedly omnipotent being allowing 1000 people doing specifically what he commanded them to do die makes him an asshole. If he exists.
If you have the power to stop 1000 people from dying, then you tell them to do something and let them die (and not peacefully either considering how unpleasant heat exhaustion is), you’re an asshole. And telling me that they will be rewarded later (which, again, you cannot prove) doesn’t make up for it. If I stab you in the eye and then give you $1000, I’m still the asshole who stabbed you in the eye.
If he doesn’t want to be called an asshole, let him defend himself. Or is he not omnipotent enough to do that and you have to do it for him based on your own unprovable claims?
Of course it’s possible to say someone is an asshole without knowing the “full consequences.”
How can you judge an action without knowing all that led to it and all that will happen because of it?
If you have the power to stop 1000 people from dying, then you tell them to do something and let them die, you’re an asshole.
Sure, if i (a human) were to do it, I would be an asshole but we can’t judge an entity that is infinite with the same logic.
If he doesn’t want to be called an asshole, let him defend himself. Or is he not omnipotent enough to do that and you have to do it for him based on your own unprovable claims?
I don’t think he cares what you think considering you do not have the same knowledge as him (we all are created and he is the creator). But even if he were to defend, based on your request, there are multiple assumptions you made. Such as he needs to show up and talk in front of you, when it could be that me agruing here is the manifestation of him defending himself.
Thats your take, not the take of the people who go there. In your eyes, letting them die is “not caring about them” but in islam, that just means that they will get much better rewards in the hereafter.
In islam, the world is a place of test, not a place where to get justice. You get justice in the hereafter.
So Allah picks and chooses amongst his most faithful who gets the best rewards?
That still makes him sound like an asshole.
No, no! Skydaddy good! Everyone else is ignorant!
I welcome this person to keep trying to convince me that their god is not an asshole for being omnipotent but letting 1000 of his faithful die for doing the specific thing he told them to do, but they’re sure going to have an uphill battle.
I don’t expect you to be convinced because obviously you are not a muslim. Im just showing the flaw in your logic/assumption
You really haven’t showed me a flaw in my assumption that the Allah Muslims claim to exist is an asshole.
I don’t think i can convince/prove to you that he isn’t but my intention is show that you can’t prove he is as well. In the end, you believing him to be an asshole is just that, a belief.
I’m not sure why you think that’s some great revelation. My believing I’m not a brain in a vat dreaming that I’m having a conversation with you is just a belief. I can’t assume anything about anything. It’s all belief.
However, I think I have proved sufficiently that by any moral standard, he would be considered an asshole. You defended it by saying he rewards them more after death.
Like I said, if I stab you in the eye and then give you $1000, I’m still the asshole that stabbed you in the eye.
Similarly, if Allah lets 1000 of his most faithful die agonizingly in the heat while doing what he commands of them but then rewards them later, he’s still the asshole who let them die agonizingly. The reward doesn’t make up for it.
You called Allah an asshole and i just showed you that it is not the objective truth, it is just an opinion.
Your analogy of stabbing in the eye, does not fully apply mainly because you have applied your own limitations on it. If Allah is the creator then he can very easily make the whole process of “eye stabbing” pleasant and painless and then “the stabbed” gets the eternal reward. Which does not sound bad.
Unironically, that is what i believe. So spot on!
Sure from your world view, because you are not omniscient. If Allah chooses to do something it is his decision, we cannot ask for an explanation, at least not in this world because that would make the “test” too easy. And that’s just if we even could understand it, which we most likely can’t.
“I can’t explain why he’s being an asshole” doesn’t make him not an asshole.
What i am saying is, it is not possible to say someone is an asshole, unless you know the full consequences of someone’s action.
To say that he is or isn’t both requires us to know this full context.
I say he isn’t an asshole because of my belief.
You say he is an asshole because of your belief.
Of course it’s possible to say someone is an asshole without knowing the “full consequences.” Other than you telling me things you can’t possibly prove, I’ve been given no reason to believe that a supposedly omnipotent being allowing 1000 people doing specifically what he commanded them to do die makes him an asshole. If he exists.
If you have the power to stop 1000 people from dying, then you tell them to do something and let them die (and not peacefully either considering how unpleasant heat exhaustion is), you’re an asshole. And telling me that they will be rewarded later (which, again, you cannot prove) doesn’t make up for it. If I stab you in the eye and then give you $1000, I’m still the asshole who stabbed you in the eye.
If he doesn’t want to be called an asshole, let him defend himself. Or is he not omnipotent enough to do that and you have to do it for him based on your own unprovable claims?
How can you judge an action without knowing all that led to it and all that will happen because of it?
Sure, if i (a human) were to do it, I would be an asshole but we can’t judge an entity that is infinite with the same logic.
I don’t think he cares what you think considering you do not have the same knowledge as him (we all are created and he is the creator). But even if he were to defend, based on your request, there are multiple assumptions you made. Such as he needs to show up and talk in front of you, when it could be that me agruing here is the manifestation of him defending himself.
I know you keep saying that I can’t judge your god, but I can and I do. And if he doesn’t care, maybe you shouldn’t care either.