Let me start off by saying, in my official admin capacity, that I really don’t know if I want to be here anymore (see the problem outlined below). That has implications beyond me just deleting my account and going outside since I would not allow the instance to run unattended. I’m also unsure if my backup admin would have any interest in taking over full time.
If it does come to that, there will be a subsequent announcement and either a transition plan or a sunset plan.
That is still up in the air, but for now…
The Problem
I just wanted to take a moment here to address Lemmy’s extremism problem / lynch-mob mentality and how DubVee is responding to that.
Last month, a new site rule was added expressly forbidding any form of extremism with regards to violence. Every rule is there for a reason, and this was added as a direct response to the increasingly violent rhetoric I’ve been seeing from users.
In full:
I don’t care which end of the spectrum you’re on. Any post/comment calling for or glorifying violence, especially political violence, will be removed. Offenders will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, but bans will be the norm and swift for violating this rule.
After running reports against the database, there have been a very large number of bans issued in the last few days for both explicit and implicit violations of that rule:
Explicit Extremism
- Explicitly praising or justifying acts of violence
- Explicitly justifying / advocating for violence / “revolution” / whatever
- Suggesting, justifying, or advocating political violence, vigilantism, and/or breaking with the foundational principles of this country in order to “solve” a problem.
- Hypocritical posts/comments that amount to “Fascism / authoritarianism / whatever -ism is bad, but a little bit is okay when it’s my side doing it”
- Stirring the pot by jumping into otherwise civil discussions and suggesting acts of violence (I’ll admit, those were mostly new accounts and likely provocateur trolls seizing on current events, but established accounts are also guilty)
Implicit Extremism
- Patterns of upvoting or boosting posts/comments that explicitly praise, endorse, or advocate for violence (or any of the ‘explicit’ items above)
- Patterns of downvoting posts/comments that denounce violence or those that advocate for lawful/peaceful solutions.
Note: Before you cry “thought crime!” about issuing bans based on vote patterns, it is a well-known tactic for trolls to operate bot or sockpuppet accounts to manipulate votes to serve an agenda. Owing to the federated nature of Lemmy, this becomes easier to do and harder to detect since those can be distributed among different instances that have varying moderation, signup, monitoring, and administrative policies and procedures. So, no, I have no compunction about banning accounts that express support for extremism by way of voting; there’s simply no straightforward way to tell bot from person from my point of view.
Even accounting for gallows humor, I must reiterate that extremism and violence are absolutely forbidden, and there will be zero tolerance shown.
While I’m aware there’s a certain “mob mentality” inherent to social media in general, “lynch-mob mentality” will not be tolerated; we’re better than that, and DubVee is not here to spread hate, violence, or fan the flames.
In Conclusion
If it turns out that we end up blocking 90% of the Fediverse because of this, then I’ll just shut this whole instance down. DubVee, by way of federation, will not devolve to 4chan (or 8chan or wherever the shitty little edgelords post their green text nowadays), and I will (figuratively) burn it to the ground before it gets to that point.
What Can You Do as a User?
First and foremost, make sure you report any content that violates this rule and refrain from violating it yourself.
If you’re seeing less comments than you were a few days ago or are no longer seeing content from certain users, this is most definitely why. You can check the modlog to see if someone you’re expecting to see has been banned.
If you (local user) wish to challenge a ban and advocate for someone who has been blocked, you may send me a DM with your request, and I will review the account further (accounts were reviewed prior to banning, but it never hurts to take a second look).
If you have a problem with this rule and our enforcement of it, there’s plenty of other instances you can choose from.
Oh no! I really hope you don’t decide to shut down. I’ve had this account since I left Reddit, and it’s been really chill here.
I’m not familiar with a lot of what you’re describing since I mostly stick to my 30 Rock sub and lurk the cute eye bleach stuff, but the modlog does paint a pretty good err grim picture. That’s unfortunate.
Anyway, I really hope you decide to keep this going. If there’s anything I can do to help, let me know.
Thanks. Nothing has been decided yet, and for now, things will continue as usual.
and I will (figuratively) burn it to the ground before it gets to that point.
Ya know, I don’t know what’s been going on, but gotta say I admire your attitude. Takes guts.
Hope you don’t have to, but if you do burn it down, you have my respect for holding your line in the sand.
Impressive. “If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs…” (Rudyard Kipling’s poem “If—”). Hold firm to what is right and true.:-)
“If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs…”
I’m trying, lol.
I am glad for that. It is NOT easy. On Reddit, most mods would burn out after 1-2 years, at least those who actually cared about their communities. I did for sure.
The mindset of little children, regardless of physical age, doesn’t allow for people to take care of themselves, and resents anyone else who does. But then unlike kids at home, on the internet they never grow up, and due to the global and always-on nature, it never ever stops. Plus Russia literally pays people to do some stuff, and I have to imagine that some of that was never even designed to make it all the way to the public, but only to mess with the minds of the people who would stand in the way of e.g. Twitter/X being the only social platform. True evil does exist in the world. It reminds me of how dmv.social closed down (last message, except that link doesn’t work anymore unless there’s an old archived copy somewhere), in response to CSAM attacks.
So whatever you end up doing, you already have the respect of the actual grown-ups, most of whom will remain silent for fear of attracting attention from the Lord of the Flies (emo-)kids (and worse). Whatever you do, be encouraged, and find your peace. Take care of yourself, and then from that place of strength, do what good you can for others, but without compromising the former. You are appreciated!:-).(Edit: to clarify, not just what you can do for people, but you yourself)
Thank you for that. That’s a spot-on analysis and pretty much matches up with my experiences.
I didn’t know dmv.social closed down, and I can’t seem to pull up the post from the few other/bigger instances I tried, but I can imagine the gist of it. I think I do now remember one of its admins in the Matrix chat considering that option around that time, but I wasn’t aware they went through with it. I don’t blame them. That kind of thing has worried me since day 1 here and has been a reason I’m glad we’ve stayed a fairly small instance. I’ve had to bolt on and/or build quite a few tools to have any semblance of safety from that kind of attack (i.e. I don’t necessarily feel safe from it, but I can at least sleep at night lol).
We already don’t federate with a few of the larger and more extreme instances, and for now, I’m content banning individual users that prove to be problematic (194 in the last 3 days not including the usual trolls, ugh). I really like the idea of the Fediverse and want to see it grow, but sometimes I feel like half or more of the people here are only here because they were too toxic for mainstream platforms (I’m here because I want to be here, and it seems like you and the other grown-ups are as well).
Anyway, thanks for the words of encouragement and listening to me whine. You are appreciated as well.
sometimes I feel like half or more of the people here are only here because they were too toxic for mainstream platform
An astute observation, given the content of several posts e.g. asking how to subvert a ban - like no does not mean no, to some. Also it bothers me to see how free people are with their downvotes without offering a shred of explanation to the recipient, i.e. taking advantage of the one-way nature that people receiving them cannot (currently, using normal means) see who did it, so an inherent imbalance in the power dynamic. Obviously I’m not talking about piling onto unpopular content, which has already been challenged so the additional downvotes add heft to the existing explanation. It just shows the inconsiderate nature of people on an “anonymous” social media platform, where people are encouraged to share their fee-fees but without any filters e.g. what effect that might have upon the recipient. Which is NOT a good match for how I would hope people would behave irl.
I would leave the Fediverse entirely rather than take part in the pollution of our culture. Sometimes I worry what effect remaining has upon me. Certainly there is some, hopefully more good than bad, but sadly it is surely a bit of both at the same time. So I guess what I’m saying here is that I already wrestle with the ethics even as a common user, and I cannot imagine what shit you have to go through as an admin. Don’t get yourself in trouble with the FBI!!! But if a way is possible to remain, I hope you can find it. Hopefully things calm down a bit here in the short term, and then they’ll spike again in November, but you have to do your day job and also irl concerns, so yeah prioritize that. And if the worst happens then I hope you won’t feel ashamed to remain as a common user too. Your worth here goes far beyond being an admin - your words impact us all, in good ways:-).
Lastly, I’ll leave you with this paraphrased quote I heard from somewhere: among good people, “rules” are not even quite necessary, but among bad people, no amount of rules (and e.g. ever more precise clarifications of them) will be sufficient. I should add that I don’t believe this is “true” exactly - bc aren’t we all both bad and good, in different ways, on different days even? - but I at least find it interesting to ponder, whenever I think about such things as whether a post belongs in a particular community or downvotes and such. Among people that care, anything at all can be discussed properly, but among people that refuse to follow the dictates of their own consciences (or have that tuned to where they do not care one bit about others), no amount of rules are going to “help” them to not hurt others with their words (since they will ignore them all anyway, or worse yet only follow those that they must and constantly seek what they can “get away with”). I am probably not conveying my point well here, but I mean to say that I support your efforts to do the right thing and hold the line against the encroaching subversive attempts to tear down everything that has had so much effort to have been built up.
