There’s nothing to listen to, either you believe animal ag is horrendous and unethical and act on it or you don’t. That’s it. No pretty pleases are going to convince someone they have to give up their beloved steak and cheese for nothing in return.
What’s more apt? Demand? I literally never see a “militant” vegan emerge anywhere unless in a thread like this which demonizes a (diverse) group of people for giving a shit about animals and this planet. I think that most people who give thought to this problem will eventually realize that they aren’t primal hunters capable of taking the life of animals, let alone a new animal or more every day.
Two things. First, the fact most people arent hunting the animals thenselves really isnt shocking. Human society thrives on specialization. We dont farm or forage our own veggies either, we dont engineer our own cars, we dont construct our own houses. Thats kinda just how civilization works. Its not uniquely symptomatic of “carnists”.
Secondly, you severely underestimate people. Primitive tribes, even if they were less effective at securing large amounts of meat, still hunted without any moral compunctions about the matter. Evolution is a slow thing, people who did that were just like us in any way that matters. Its not unreasonable to assume most people would adjust if you strip away the automation of society. Desperate people resort to cannibalism for goodness sake, I wouldnt put hunting past them.
I am not remotely arguing against subsistence farming or hunting. Hell even hunting meat yourself that you consume. I wouldn’t do it willingly, but that doesn’t make it inherently immoral.
People are detached from the method of making their meat. It is far more unpleasant than most want to think about. The animals are mistreated. It’s hard to argue they aren’t. That’s really the point
I am underestimating no one. I do not remotely doubt humanity’s capacity for violence and depravity. I am saying that we as people can choose to minimize harm and violence (to each other, animals we farm, etc)
edit: I should also point out that we are FAR past the point of “subsistence” with out meat consumption. We consume more meat now than ever before. There are many costs associated with this to our health, the animals we eat, the planet …
Right, we get it, but if you tried attracting people to veganism with amazing recipes, and annecdotes of how much healthier you feel, people might come have a conversation and try making some vegan food. Instead these communities drive anyone non-vegan right out the door.
What’s the expression? Honey will catch more flies?
Reformism doesn’t work. People that are vegan because it’s “actually really good food” or looking for applause for “saving the planet” stop being vegan once it becomes too inconvenient. Because their mindset is that they are doing something good and you can stop doing good things or balance them out with other good deeds and there is an inherent expectation of a reward for being good.
Not supporting slavery and murder however should be the norm, not something that feels like a burden. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can’t accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won’t accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their child. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren’t interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. This isn’t a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.
There’s nothing to listen to, either you believe animal ag is horrendous and unethical and act on it or you don’t. That’s it. No pretty pleases are going to convince someone they have to give up their beloved steak and cheese for nothing in return.
Then why are you trying so hard to explain yourself?
Removed by mod
That word is doing some heavy lifting. What does asking look like to you?
What’s more apt? Demand? I literally never see a “militant” vegan emerge anywhere unless in a thread like this which demonizes a (diverse) group of people for giving a shit about animals and this planet. I think that most people who give thought to this problem will eventually realize that they aren’t primal hunters capable of taking the life of animals, let alone a new animal or more every day.
Two things. First, the fact most people arent hunting the animals thenselves really isnt shocking. Human society thrives on specialization. We dont farm or forage our own veggies either, we dont engineer our own cars, we dont construct our own houses. Thats kinda just how civilization works. Its not uniquely symptomatic of “carnists”.
Secondly, you severely underestimate people. Primitive tribes, even if they were less effective at securing large amounts of meat, still hunted without any moral compunctions about the matter. Evolution is a slow thing, people who did that were just like us in any way that matters. Its not unreasonable to assume most people would adjust if you strip away the automation of society. Desperate people resort to cannibalism for goodness sake, I wouldnt put hunting past them.
I am not remotely arguing against subsistence farming or hunting. Hell even hunting meat yourself that you consume. I wouldn’t do it willingly, but that doesn’t make it inherently immoral.
People are detached from the method of making their meat. It is far more unpleasant than most want to think about. The animals are mistreated. It’s hard to argue they aren’t. That’s really the point
I am underestimating no one. I do not remotely doubt humanity’s capacity for violence and depravity. I am saying that we as people can choose to minimize harm and violence (to each other, animals we farm, etc)
edit: I should also point out that we are FAR past the point of “subsistence” with out meat consumption. We consume more meat now than ever before. There are many costs associated with this to our health, the animals we eat, the planet …
Sorry, I’m not going to participate if you’re going to be abusive.
Abusive? 😂 I accept your apology.
Right, we get it, but if you tried attracting people to veganism with amazing recipes, and annecdotes of how much healthier you feel, people might come have a conversation and try making some vegan food. Instead these communities drive anyone non-vegan right out the door.
What’s the expression? Honey will catch more flies?
Reformism doesn’t work. People that are vegan because it’s “actually really good food” or looking for applause for “saving the planet” stop being vegan once it becomes too inconvenient. Because their mindset is that they are doing something good and you can stop doing good things or balance them out with other good deeds and there is an inherent expectation of a reward for being good.
Not supporting slavery and murder however should be the norm, not something that feels like a burden. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can’t accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won’t accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their child. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren’t interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. This isn’t a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.
it is. most people oppose slavery and murder.