In a recent call on the national question someone asked about how some people say the United States is not a legitimate nation because of settler colonialism and he said he knew it was obviously wrong but was wondering what their mistake is. Someone claimed that ālandbackā people never have a clear policy proposal. And I was shocked and hoping it could be rectified. Next was said in response that itās true as Stalin said that the US became a nation when it left Britain because it was a specific group of settlers, but it expanded through brutal means and that should be rectified. After a while into the call eventually the issue was returned to. The fact that there are still many indigenous tribes within the US and therefore should be given their original land and sovereignty was said. In response people said that it would make them to isolated from the union and they have the option to have that sovereignty from their reservations, but obviously choose not to, which is absurd because these states should also get lots of aid and solidarity from other socialist areas (as this would be after the revolution and it would be different to now). I thought it was bad enough but after it was said that primarily settler colonial nations need their histories rectified they said that they donāt even oppose the existence of Israel anymore. Then the gensec said that people are ignoring ādialecticsā that things change. People move in and out of territory- (though usually not by genocide)- and therefore the US is no different and we should not try to change that. āAll the slaves are dead.ā-Though people are still affected by that history, native Americans are still under special oppression by the state, and in the case of Palestine people are still alive that can remember having their land stolen and have physical evidence that it belonged to them- according to another āsome Marxists read Marx and Lenin and come to the opposite conclusionsā suggesting those bad Marxists are the āland-backā people.
Whoever warned me that they were PatSocs are right. What should I do? Is there hope of convincing them? Should I leave ASAP? Should I wait? Itās been mentioned here that we should follow the leadership of BIPOC people, does anyone know the modern equivalent of the White Panthers or AIM I should join?
Edit: I forget to mention the made the point that refugees are coming here now and if we do landback there would be refugees from here-like, sure peopleād have to move but weāve got space, and arenāt our birth rates declining anyway? Itās not like thereāll be an anti-white trail of tears. With socialist central planning we can allocate resources to support evicted settlers. Also, thereās a whole lotta land thatās privately owned that could easily be expropriated for indigenous people along with national parks which theyād manage far better. I think they also suggested that we need to integrate Native Americans as much as possible because their sovereignty wonāt help. Finally, apparently they wouldāve supported the new Afrikan struggle in the 30ās, but since I guess they donāt think you can fight fascism and racism and colonialism at the same time.
āAll the slaves are deadā? Wow, I havenāt seen such a willful misunderstanding of Black and Indigenous struggles for sovereignty in a long minute. This seemingly willful failure to understand how the settler history of malfeasance, abuse, and theft still resonates to this day is exactly why I say the white Amerikan left has yet to convince me that my community doesnāt need to pursue self-determination, sovereignty, and understanding for ourselves.
Unfortunately, the last people I heard moving in that direction donāt accept mixed folks unless their father is Black(fucking yikes, thatās some ADOS shit), and their leader got clinked on fugazi federal firearms charges.
Do you see any evidence they have changed or corrected their views before? Considering you are queer, have you felt youāve been treated unfairly?
If you donāt have sufficient experience with the party, Iād say to persist criticizing them internally and fighting for a more correct political line until they either expell you or you realize thereās no use in correcting them. Only practice can tell
Theyāre the least queerphobic PatSocs Iāve seen. However I feel this specific line is difficult to fight beyond dming everyone a revleft podcast or keeping repeating points that will get shut down. Itās hard to convince settlers that other groupsā need to be prioritized at the risk of their own, but perhaps itās better not to go down without a fight.
@Tankeke@lemmygrad.ml since I suggested them to you, you should be aware of this.
Thanks for letting me know. I canāt stand ANY PatSocs, look at PCF, they are getting rubbish because PatSocs crap.
PCUSA is an irrelevant party that hasnāt gotten anything done in their multiple years of being a bookclub. They just rail against other orgs for being āsectarian,ā put down multiple grievances by poc members as liberal/ultra while they fail to accomplish any real organizing of their own.
Iām not USian but from my understanding of US leftist parties, I donāt understand why anyone would join these parties when PSL exists, they seem to be the only decent party there. Everyone else either seems like Larpers or ops, itās probably being a bit reductionist, but
Iām somewhat wary of PSL because the infamous abuse scandal happened in the branch of the city I live near. From what Iāve read of it, while I canāt say for certain whether the abuse charge is accurate, the way the leadership handled the incident was pretty bad regardless of the veracity of the accusation.
This is the account of the accuser of the misconduct.
WARNING: the following 2 links are google docs links.
Here is a document of some membersās criticisms of how the org handled the Philly situation.
@Elara@lemmygrad.ml youāre pretty good with this kind of stuff. Do you know a way to get the content of a google doc without needing to sign into Google?
youāre pretty good with this kind of stuff. Do you know a way to get the content of a google doc without needing to sign into Google?
Google doesnāt require you to sign in to export the document. However, itās probably not a good idea to use Google Docs at all, so I used a VPN and exported them for you :)
Here are the links:
Thanks. Maybe degoogling google docs can be a feature on the tankie reply bot.
Iāll see if itās possible, but probably not. Google has put a lot of work into making sure bots donāt automatically do anything on Google Docs without paying exorbitant fees for API access.
I need to see if theyāre active in my area. All Iāve heard against them is flea war accusing them of being opps, though I must admit Iāve yet to read the article.
Who is flea war? I have never heard of them.
A substack that has writings about anti-imperialism and psyops
I donāt really have the patience to trudge through those confusingly organized articles right now, but just skimming through, theyāre accusing almost all self-proclaimed socialist organizations and outlets Iāve ever heard of in Amerika of being CIA psyops
Iām interested to see their evidence, but they do seem a little paranoid.
I would be interested to hear from someone smarter than me whoās looked at their claims in detail
If what they say is accurate, there is essentially not a single leftist organization in the US that isnāt involved with the CIA doing contemporary cointelpro in some form, which if is true is pretty fucking terrible for every comrade in the US and means that basically everything any of the five organizations have touched is tainted by the CIA which is a metric fuck done of leftist organizing that is rotten. For such a dramatic claim, the evidence needs to be air tight and the presentation needs to be a fuck ton better than it is, I read through everything and I came out more confused than knowledgeable. The organization is atrocious and it looks like a red string conspiracy board. Iām not saying it isnāt true, but someone who knows how to present and put together information needs to work with them.
Seems extreme but considering how quickly rhetoric develops into something toxic it is hard not to imagine something exacerbating or facilitating it. It can and will turn toxic on its own for many reasons, certainly, but the speed and concentration of toxicity is a red flag for me and makes it seem like it is engineered or intelligent.
Beyond that, the amount of young people I am encountering at school that explicitly want to join the CIA, DoD, State Department, FBI, military etc. is absolutely mind boggling and terrifying. All of them have leftist sensibilities and want to make the world a better place and so on. It is hardly clear what exactly is going on but from my limited perspective being batshit paranoid seems like a legitimate state of mind for any communist or radical of any kind.
Oh no. Not Black Alliance for Peace. If theyāre implicated in this whole web too, I just lost the single last news outlet I had faith in bc Black Agenda Report is probs the one non-ADOS-ish, non-Democrat Black news outlet Iāve foundā¦
What does ados mean?
āAmerican Descendants of Slavesā; it sounds benign until you find out itās some Tariq Nasheed griftery, tailor-made to divide the Black community farther than we already are by colorism debates and the ever-ongoing twitter warring between these scrub-assed Black manosphere types and the marginal fringe ādivestorā movement. Wrecker shit from someone who aināt even left, p much.
Their whole angle is āreparations, but only for people who can verifiably track their lineage back through slaveryā while totally ignoring that the vast majority of us in that position in the first place have our genealogical data along those lines straight up disappear by 1890.
I canāt even trace my ancestry that far and my family never was enslaved, sounds like a dumb thing
Oh, immensely. Thing is, you try to tell Tariq that, and heāll send his lil manosphere twitter eggs after you, and GOD HELP YOU if youāre lighter-skinned than like. Donald Glover. Heās a clown, soās his clique, and that āmovementā aināt helping nobody but the people perpetuating the grift.
Is PCUSA the older one or is that CPUSA?
The latter. PCUSA split from CPUSA in like 2014. I forget why.
leave, their line is a bourgeois one
I figured that out. Theyāre basically larpers who have a somewhat pro-landback pamphlet, but in person hate anyone who would say anything pro-landback. They think theyāre the perfect Leninist vanguard, but they have no plan to do anything except a couple protests. They always talk about their specific definition of fascism and why the US is not that, when itās worse for a lot of people, just not them yet. I left after five months (the specific spark for leaving was a reactionary trot in their āmassā org, who I knew would throw any principled people off, and shined light on the poor strategy of PCUSA in general).
thereās many Revolutionary Study Group organizations around america, you should check those out :)
I looked those words up and only found an MLM org calling China imperialist with a 90ās looking website. Any specific groups? Do they actually do work, or are they just like mini non-patsoc PCUSAs?
90ās looking website
How else are western communists supposed to show to the world that theyāre legit?
