I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

  • yuri@pawb.social
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    37 minutes ago

    yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao

    that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear

  • aredditimmigrant@endlesstalk.org
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    2 hours ago

    As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don’t want to do the wrong thing.

    I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.

    Side question, I’m neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

    • spujb@lemmy.cafe
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      39 minutes ago

      is there a definitive list of pronouns?

      No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.

      I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told

      This is a good strategy :)

      once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts

      This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135

      how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?

      Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.

    • 1ostA5tro6yne@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      17 minutes ago

      You sound like you’ve got the right idea and a good handle on things. Neopronouns are generally a very case-by-case thing and not at all common, people who use them generally will (politely and without fuss) let you know, and many neopronoun-users (not all but many) also accept they/them. It’s not a thing that comes up a lot, and personally I think people tend to give the concept too much mental bandwidth. The important thing is to be respectful of each individual, if you’re not actively being a dickhead you probably don’t have too much to worry about on that front.

  • spujb@lemmy.cafe
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    3 hours ago

    Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.

  • Sasha [They/Them]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    6 hours ago

    Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I’ve literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I’m including my own community I run outside of lemmy.

    Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it’s incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.

  • TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works
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    15 hours ago

    Very good post, I agree with everything said.

    However I have a followup issue, I use Voyager primarily for Lemmy. I don’t have any way to see bios (to my knowledge) in the app, so therefore I cannot see pronouns unless they are in someone’s username. I have one of the “user tags” set up for drag specifically and will for any other neopronouns needed, but that requires someone correcting me before I can create it.
    My question is, is there a way that this issue can be overcome? Id prefer to not move apps if it’s possible as i like Voyagers UI but I will if I must.

    Also, this is not really related, but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj? I heard that there was some drama but I can’t figure out anything other than the NCD@SJW community mod having beef with blahaj, but not anything between the SJW instance itself.

    • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPM
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      14 hours ago

      The rule isn’t “Get peoples pronouns correct 100% of the time, never make mistakes, or get banned”. It’s “Respect peoples pronouns”

      You’re allowed to make mistakes. You’re allowed to not know. What you’re not allowed to do is invalidate and erase the pronouns of people who have made them clear.

      but do you happen to have a post or explanation you can link to about some drama between the shit-just-works instance and Blahaj

      It’s news to me!

      • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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        3 hours ago

        lol, I fear this will happen more and more often because of how complicated federation is and how many don’t understand it.

  • yuri@pawb.social
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    19 hours ago

    i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.

    reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.

    • EmptySlime@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      11 hours ago

      I don’t get why so many people seem to be so pressed about drag. Like dawg, just ignore and move on. Like I have drag filtered or blocked or whatever you call it entirely because I just don’t vibe with a fair bit of the content that’s come across my feed from drag. Absolutely shine on you crazy diamond. It just ain’t for me.

      My personal feelings on neopronouns are irrelevant. I’m just gonna try to refer to people how they ask me to.

      • vithigar@lemmy.ca
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        5 hours ago

        I also blocked Drag. Not because I have any problems with using whatever pronouns a person wants, but because I found Drag insufferable.

    • Kichae@lemmy.ca
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      5 hours ago

      This is a very simple concept that you will need to get used to: Obey the rules of the website you are posting to or commenring on, or don’t post/comment on that website. If you do not agree with the rules, you can ignore the website. If you cannot grok this, then I am afraid there is very little hope for you.

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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      7 hours ago

      inane mental gymnastics

      demand unreasonable accomodations

      “”“Unreasonable accomodations,”“” here meaning, using people’s preferred pronouns.

      How tf do you see yourself as an ally?

  • lolola@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    22 hours ago

    I’ve spent what feels like half an hour scrolling through comment threads to figure out what the hell happened to lead to this. Is there some kind of explainer somewhere? Is there a key thread that I missed somehow? Should I even be asking?

    • Taleya@aussie.zone
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      18 hours ago

      A user called drag can sometimes rub people the wrong way. Sometimes it’s drag’s actions. Sometimes it’s the fact drag refers to dragself with pronouns using various permutations of drag.

      The former is a valid reason for contention. The latter isn’t.

      • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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        2 hours ago

        I always thought Drag was speaking in the third person. Did I misunderstand something? Edit: yes, I did

    • klemptor@startrek.website
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      21 hours ago

      There’s a user called dragonfucker whose gender is apparently “dragonfucker”, who insists on the neopronoun “drag”, and who eagerly takes offense whenever misgendered, whether the misgendering was intentional or not. Some people understandably believe this user is a troll.

      • SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        2 hours ago

        Except they don’t eagerly take offense to being mispronouned. Most of the time, when I’ve seen it, they don’t even say anything.

        • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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          5 hours ago

          How dare you call drag ‘them’!!! >:(

          😂😂😂 just kidding, drag doesn’t act like that. Thank you for sticking up for drag.

        • lad@programming.dev
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          5 hours ago

          Some Lemmy clients show handle instead of username, that’s why some users may never have seen ‘Drag Rider (drag)’ at all

        • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPM
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          19 hours ago

          If you think respecting neopronouns is a horrible idea, you picked the wrong instance

            • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPM
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              18 hours ago

              You are this close to a ban for your ongoing conflation of paedophilia and neopronouns. Your question was also answered in my initial post. Pronouns are to be respected. Behaviour is actionable.

                • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPM
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                  18 hours ago

                  I’m going to make this simple. There is no ability for a minor to consent, and non consensual behaviour of any sort is not welcome on this instance.

                  And nor are you for repeated conflation of the two topics.

            • yuri@pawb.social
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              19 hours ago

              is this a real comparison? are you doing a “slippery slope” thing?

              how EXACTLY is calling drag by their preferred term going to pave the way for pedophiles to take over lgbtq spaces?

              • DeadWorldWalking@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                18 hours ago

                There’s no slope, I don’t think people who are attracted to minors should be accepted or validated, and making that an instance rule makes me deeply uncomfortable.

                I’m just sick of seeing Minor Attracted People being blindly accepted into our spaces.

                We have to draw the line somewhere.

                Edit: I literally don’t care about the dragonfucker, dragons aren’t real and aren’t children.

                • yuri@pawb.social
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                  35 minutes ago

                  i don’t know how or why you wandered in here, but you’re the only person taking about whatever it is you’re talking about

    • Coskii@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      22 hours ago

      This is more of a public service announcement style of post than a deeply intentioned ‘after incident response’ post.

      While I’m sure there have been plenty of incidents based on some of the other comments, there hasn’t been some singular massive event to cause this to happen. If anything it’s more of a reminder that one purpose of blahaj.zone is for inclusivity and acceptance. Excluding people because of some indirect words is not the goal.

  • nikki@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    1 day ago

    i don’t get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that

    it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn’t be more complicated than that

  • pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    1 day ago

    I don’t care for neopronouns, but it also doesn’t matter what I think. If it’s REALLY a problem for me, like that person who’s gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won’t refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person’s gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)

    • Fénix (they/he)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      20 hours ago

      I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn’t make that person my god, and I shouldn’t be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don’t follow. I may choose to follow other religions’ conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person’s pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.

      • Grail (capitalised)@aussie.zone
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        16 hours ago

        I don’t think using someone’s preferred pronoun capitalisation is a worship thing. On My antirealist discord server, capitalised pronouns are the default. If you want lowercase pronouns, you have to pick a role that says so.

        I’ve met people who thought capitalised pronouns were a matter of religion. But I’ve also met people who think “he” and “she” pronouns are a matter of religion. They think their gender identities are handed down to them by Elohim, and refusing to use someone’s god-given pronouns is a form of disrespect against their god. They say “My god doesn’t make mistakes”, and think their religious beliefs are a reason to misgender people. I think that if treating people decently means decoupling pronouns from religion, then everyone should decouple pronouns from religion.

    • gmtom@lemmy.world
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      19 hours ago

      Your last point raises a good question.

      Mods, if someone says Their pronouns are supposed to be capitalised, will we be called for it if we don’t capitalise Them?

      • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
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        15 hours ago

        Me omw to make all of my pronouns the full transcript of the Bee Movie

        Actually, would that be covered under this rule? Like I would be trolling if I did that, but under a true all-acceptance policy you couldn’t selectively not use those pronouns