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Everyone knows it was a Nazi Salute.
Nazi’s just denying it because 1) they are not quite at the point where they can sieg heil while marching down mainstreet just yet and 2) because it amuses them to see the left try to desperately convince them it was a nazi salute.
All your desperate justification, facts, evidence, etc?
It wont make a nazi not a nazi.
but it will amuse them, and exhaust you.
Its time to stop using words against nazis, and go back to using forms are communication that carry a more physical finality to their arguments.
They are not the baddies because of a Nazi salute. They are baddies because of shitload of other things. Which I’m starting to think the Nazi solute is a distraction from. I see so many posts about the salute and the “Gulf of America” and about assigned-at-conception gendering, and almost nothing about the executive order that actually have implications.
Wrote up a summary months ago (with reputable sources!) and warned about Nazis too and was permabanned from Lemmy news and politics for it.
Idk man, you can tell people stuff, but it’s so hard for them to access what’s real right now. There’s a concerted online effort to suppress factual info.
Someone who doesn’t pick as many internet fights as me needs to post that to BestOfLemmy
He’s basically an edge lord 4-channer, Nazi saluting to: “own the libs” is sort of on brand.
I don’t think he’s a dyed in the wool Führer-lover. I do think he’s a hyper insecure, spoiled, man-child with enough ties to the far right to idolize “anti-social behavior” and think he’s the hottest shit ever to pull off such a “based” stunt.
A poser; doing loser shit opening the door for someone/something much worse because his idiot brain thinks he’s being cute.
You basically just described every fascist/Nazi ever while arguing that he’s not really a Nazi just “edgy.” Let’s not make this same mistake again, hyper insecure spoiled man-children with enough ties to the far right to idolize anti-social behavior ARE NAZIS.
I’m not excusing behavior, far from it, but I’m not sure our modern problem children can be described with an 80 year old German political party. Far right, white supremest extremism is a now problem. These losers don’t care if you call them a Nazi, it just means you “fell for it bro/got owned lib.”
Call them what they are, not what they want to be.
I think the label “Nazi” is used not because it is the most accurate possible term, but because it communicates very efficiently.
but I’m not sure our modern problem children can be described with an 80 year old German political party. Far right, white supremest extremism is a now problem.
I’m confused - wasn’t far right, ‘aryan’ supremacy extremism a then problem too? Specifically 80 years ago in Germany?
Put it this way, if the forced labour camps were to start up tomorrow. Do you think this chud would be for or against them?
I’m not going to split hairs over what kind of fascist / fascism enabler he is. He did the salute, he boosts Nazis. Close enough.
I am, they’re fascists, whatever colour shirt they’re wearing. And hard disagree that our modern problems can’t be described by old ones, what an ahistorical take.
I didn’t mean anything personal, just my point of view, any angry vibes were absolutely not headed your way. I just am a bit frustrated that this is the world we live in.
I can agree to disagree comrade.
I don’t think he’s a dyed in the wool Führer-lover.
No, of course not. He’s a dyed-in-the-wool Afrikkkaner. It’s a Dutch/English strain of Fascism far more in line with the American brand than the German/Nordic Central European brand.
A poser; doing loser shit opening the door for someone/something much worse because his idiot brain thinks he’s being cute.
A professional sycophant and corrupt corporate hack who has made a cool trillion selling exploding cars, crashing spaceships, and non-existent subway systems. He’s anything but a loser, as he’s perfectly hacked the modern capitalist system.
The Nazi pastiche he’s adopted is intended to keep those super-sized government contracts and cheap private loans coming. Same reason he pays teams of pro-gamers to run his video game accounts and throws the biggest, most debauched orgies in Silicon Valley or Austin, TX. Same reason he nearly killed himself and Peter Thiel doing burnouts in a brand new McLauren.
TrueAnon Podcast has a great three-part series “The Lamest Show On Earth” that takes a deep dive into Musk’s background. Does a great job of laying out who this guy is and how he’s successfully grifted his way to the pinnacle of the western business ziggurat. The most that can be said of him is that he loves to dominate other people. The explicit flavor of fascism is secondary.
You’re not wrong, a lot of these chuds, especially the tech bros, are obviously deeply insecure and have figured out they can’t buy authenticity and coolness with money or power. That’s where that brittle and mean bitterness they all have about other people living as they choose comes from. But it goes deeper than just emulating edgelords for kicks and covering up for their self-esteem issues.
Doing it and avoiding any tangible punishment or long term fallout demonstrates what a powerful, untouchable person he is to the boot-licking right wing base. The whole goal is to build an in group of followers that is protected with power and privilege (which ensures their loyalty) and this is a signal to them that he can do just that.
It’s also a demonstration of unity in having a common enemy, and being willing to do anything to “win”. Wether it’s politics or a culture war, being willing to escalate is seen as a marker of strength. It’s the only kind of political and social interaction they can understand.
You’re right that he’s likely not a hard core admirer of Hitler. It’s not about a particular political standpoint, it’s about having the power to do whatever he wants and making sure people know it.
I’m starting to think that doing enough Ketamine to take down a racehorse just before giving a speech to the entire world’s media, was probably not a good idea…
Being a Nazi doesn’t help either.
Inventing a time machine that lets you go back and kill hitler before he gets in power is a very common power fantasy.
The Great Man Theory take is that Hitler was saying and doing a kind of politics unique to his historical moment. He didn’t stumble into the right beer hall at the right moment and echo the sentiments of tens of thousands of his disgruntled military peers but transformed the popular views of a nation. His rhetoric was brilliantly gripping, rather than just heavily circulated. His political maneuverings were expert rather than just stubbornly persistent. His military strategies were the product of genius rather than meth and recklessness.
Go back in time and kill Hitler and you don’t fix the post-war disparity between the WW1 Axis and Ally powers. You don’t discourage re-militarization in a country overrun by US military contractors that saw massive profits in rearming the German state. You certainly don’t mitigate the impacts of the post-1917 wave after wave of Red Scares or keep Henry Ford from circulating “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” in every Ford dealership on either side of the Atlantic.
At best, you spare Charlie Chaplain the shame of shaving off his tiny mustache. But there’s a strong reason to believe the post-Depression fascist wave that crested into WW2 was over-determined.
You wouldn’t stop WWII, but you would drastically change its nature.
Get rid of Hitler and you just end up with President Himmler instead. Virtually nothing else changes.
Says who?
History is not predetermined.
You can argue with a philosopher over that. But certain historical events can be over-determined, with enough causal factors prompting them that a given outcome is functionally inevitable.
Perhaps odds may favor “macro” events like “war”. They do not predict which countries are invaded, the brutality of the leader, the alliances, who the leader is, concentration camps, etc. but not a “Hitler”.
If you want to go back in time and prevent the Holocaust specifically, your time would be better well spent killing Henry Ford or Arthur de Gobineau or Martin Luther. Mass murder of Jews in Europe had been common place for centuries. It was a sentiment the Nazis capitalized on, not one they invented.
Similarly, if you wanted to deter shape of European politics that lead to the World Wars, temporal assassination of Bismark or Napoleon III would be far more effective. Those battle lines had been drawn well in advance of 1932.
Yet today when Americans have 2A and 11 guns per person instead of killing tyrants they’ll side with them out of convenience and self preservation. The apathetic centrist majority who think political illiteracy is the reasonable and sensible position are the biggest asset to fascism.
That’s the thing about the 2A-people, no matter how much you fantasize about taking on the government guerilla-style… with the two party system as it is, at least half of the people with guns will join the opposing side…
Unless, of course, you turn it into a matter of partisan identity and the other side willingly plays along, meaning it’s more like 60/30 in your favor.
Time travel guy failed by a couple of centimeters.
The fact this is a debatable thing is the shame of humanity.
You know what’s even worst? ADL.
It’s not a full on Nazi salute as the words „Heil“, „Heil Hitler“, or „Sieg Heil“ aren’t used. However, it is a full on salute in its tradition. A right wing oligarch holding a victory speech espousing conservative revolution and a glorious future are in the vein of the fascism of old.
Trumpism doesn’t need to even express itself as fully fascist. The popular support, the support of the tycoons of industry, institutional acquiescence, lack of organized resistance, means he doesn’t need to go full authoritarian.
The ideological flexibility of Trumpism is enormous. Allegiance to Trump and MAGA is pretty much it. The rest of the ideology is dynamically formed by sycophants looking for Trump‘s favor. The post ironic attitude means immunity to value based criticism.
Elon Musk is a mix of minister for propaganda and court jester at the same time.
It’s not a full on Nazi salute as the words „Heil“, „Heil Hitler“, or „Sieg Heil“ aren’t used.
Oh, give me a break. There’s no vocal component to the salute. It’s a salute. You don’t get to say “No, it only counts if I say the words while I’m wearing the uniform, and I have to be goose-stepping while I’m doing it, too”.
I know I won’t change your mind by disagreeing with you regarding the nazi salute. But I want to say that I am very grossed out by all the apologists defending him, even just a little bit.
Just remember the quote, for evil men to succeed, good men just have to do nothing
The apathetic centrist majority who think political illiteracy is the smart and sensible position are the biggest asset to fascism.
Its real easy to be a centrist when it doesn’t directly effect you.
Or when you don’t realize that it already is directly affecting you because “They pay me well enough to keep me in a comfy box, I don’t have time to do anything or read or risk losing my job” while the ones they love are picked off one by one. Then when they come out the other side they go “How did all this happen? It was equally the fault of the radicals on both sides.” Thus the unenlightened centrist cycle will continue.
Journalists: It appeared to be a South African karate chop of some kind
If you went to college and knew any media majors you’d know exactly why media is failing us. Some journalists are the exception, obviously, but not the ones to whom you refer.
I didn’t know any media majors so maybe you could enlighten us.
It was the easiest degree to complete, so the majors were not the sharpest.
I figure ProPublica and The Lancet doesn’t feel the need to write about a Nazi salute we could all see for our own eyes, no investigative journalism necessary.
Punches In Afrikaans
It has been maddening how corporate media has been trying to tell us it was anything but a Nazi salute. I’m reminded of the Star Trek episode Chain of Command Part II, “There are four lights!”
Imagine what else they’ve been lying about.
Gell-Mann Amnesia effect
Lots of sex stuff with kids… some accidental murder and drug binges… the typical conservative stuff they project on others.
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, preach
That’s just rich people behavior.
link?
I studied Star Trek at university, taught the history of Star Trek on two continents and wrote for major newspapers about Star Trek. I am internet famous for fact-checking chuds on the history, ideology and policy of the Federation.
There are four lights.
Those chuds:
There are four parts!
it’s a joke about the movie Gaslight
It’s also the Roman salute, which predates nazis and fascists.
And you gotta admit, it’s a powerful gesture.
Also, he runs a company that makes spaceships. Which is pretty awsome.
Think about that while you work your shitty 9-to-5
And the swastika was a Hindu symbol, blah blah blah.
Hanging dictators upside down is also a very powerful gesture.
He doesn’t run shit anymore, assuming that he’s ever run something more than his mouth.
He’s just like one of those opportunistic diseases that attack a body with a compromised immune systems.
And while I work my shitty job I’ll think about how cool it is that I’m not a Nazi *shrugs
PS: since he’s Trump’s propaganda arm, I think that he won’t hang by his feet, he’ll just bite into a cyanide pill to avoid prosecution.
This “Roman salute” is also a ridiculous claim. Why would musk to a Roman salute? How does Rome fit into anything?
Then you just devolve into the common “well ur jealous because he’s rich” thing that people go for whenever an oligarch is criticized.
It’s the lamest version of whatever you want to call it. he’s not projecting power, he looks like a 16 year old edgelord in a fedora and trenchcoat that had practiced this in the mirror for weeks and then got overly excited and blew his load when he had the opportunity to be edgy in public. He’s a fascist and used a salute adopted by fascists in Italy and then by fascists in Germany in the early 20th century. The man is a fascist, no matter how you or any of your chud friends try to spin it.
Fuck off wanna be Nazi.
Hundred bucks says that they resemble their username
You are like one of those little bugs that make noise at night. But instead of a melodious cheeping you just go “nazi nazi”.
It’s very simple. If you try to apologize for Nazis, that makes you a Nazi. My grandparents gave me and the rest of their grandchildren all the training, and guns, we need to properly deal with fascists.
The only good fascist is a dead fascist.
But nobody apologized for nazis.
You did. That salute originally was the Roman salute, and an American one. It isn’t either one of those any more. Anyone with common sense, and any sort of knowledge of history knows that.
Or are you admitting that you are a bot?
That’s a semantic argument about the salute. It makes no reference to nazis. You have nothing.
Since you’re new here, I’m gonna give you a hint. We are a leftist community. We will not fall for your gaslighting, lies, and conservative talking points. If you insist on trying to sow division in our communities, you aren’t going to have any fun doing it. We will permaban you. You’re probably going to be far more welcome on propaganda sites like Truth Social, and Twitter.
Reddit’s leaking.
Thanks you, we’ve now got another data point which shows that it only takes 27 hours for someone to get brainwashed
And you gotta admit, it’s a powerful gesture.
?
Homelander jerking off on top of a skyscraper.
He claimed it was a “my heart goes out to you” sentiment.
But the “my heart goes out to you” gesture is palm-up…
My heart goes out to you is the fig leaf Elon used for plausible deniability. He probably thinks he was terribly clever. Which, as it turns out, he was. Elon will get away with this and pushed the envelope of what’s possible. Others will imitate him.
This has all the elements for a softer fascist salute, where the words aren’t „Sieg Heil!“ or „Duce!“, but simply „my heart!“. A salute with the hand moving from heart to extension while saying firmly „my heart!“ works well to be visually striking.
But fElon doesn’t have a heart
He does have a heart, don’t make that mistake. That’s one of the key areas of the body to aim at, see Figure 1: Brian Thompson.
I mean it just doesn’t matter what it was “supposed” to be. How many times have we seen things that are sooort of close to the nazi salute so people are like “hey better not do that.” And this is stuff that’s like basically just anything holding your hand in the air. This was straight up the salute lol I mean there’s no two ways about it. The question is what the intention was. And if it wasn’t intended to be some sort of nod to Nazism or fascism or something, why in the flying fuck would you do it?! lol I mean everyone in the literal world knows it would prolly be a bad idea to do anything like that but the self proclaimed Uber genius, smartest man in the world, ultra mega mastermind, God gamer musk… It just slips his mind?
The fact that he does it with such force and enthusaism too…
And turns 180 to do it again.
The guy is clearly a fucking Nazi.
And without denial.
Biting his bottom lip so hard.
so either it was an intended nazi salute or this guy is a fucking moron, or both.
He may be a moron, but he knew exactly what he was doing and he meant it with every fiber of his being.
I hate that narrative that the most powerful people on earth are like just morons when they do bad things. Trump got that treatment a lot and I don’t think you become the president of the USA a second time if you’re an idiot.
Same goes for elon.
There is no excuse IMO.
I mean they’re not mutually exclusive though. They can be both morons and evil.
Yeah but can they be generally stupid? I think that’s just copium. They’re not stupid.
100% and you gotta do some Olympic gold medal level mental gymnastics to even entertain any other possibility imo
Generally you don’t yeet your heart out with such force either
I’ll give him this. That shit was crisp. Almost as if he stood in front of a mirror practicing it over and over.
He grunted as well. There was force involved
White power is in the White House…quite terrifying and embarrassing
It’s been in the White House goddammit, they’re just being open about it now.
No one tell bro about Woodrow Wilson
Or Andrew Jackson.
Andrew Jackson deserves more hate.
Anyone who knows anything about the Native Americans, the Indigenous Critique, and their ideas of freedom’s profound influence on the European Enlightenment, should boil with hatred at what European Americans did to them.
Always suspected Captain Obvious had a scholar background.
That’s Dr. Obvious to you!
Logical fallacy: Argument from authority.
There’s a difference between an authority figure and someone with expertise in a subject. This individual isn’t using a position of power to supplement his argument, he is just detailing his experience.
People really need to stop treating logical fallacy like they’re harry potter spells.
also the fallacy fallacy would fit perfectly here. Even if the fallacy was occurring that doesn’t mean the argument is wrong.
Yep, you can illogically come to a conclusion and still be right. That’s basically how intuitive thought is defined.
(J) To emphasize the misuse of logical fallacies in recent history.
There’s a difference between an authority figure and someone with expertise in a subject.
By “authority” it means “authority on the subject”. A well known and respected physicist would be an authority on the subject or in the field of physics. The issue necessarily isn’t the lack of expertise but that the expertise shouldn’t be trusted blindly but rather the findings or argument should be verified.
Not that trusting the authorities on the subject is a bad idea especially when you are yourself not an expert. It’s more of a thing when trying to study something, figuring out proof of stuff and so on when you need to be aware of the potential issues.
I always thought that it meant: just because someone has authority over one subject, doesn’t mean they have it for another. Just because Einstein is good at math and physics doesn’t mean his quotes about philosophy and religion hold any authority.
I always thought that it meant: just because someone has authority over one subject, doesn’t mean they have it for another.
That can be part of it, but the definitional aspect of the fallacy is attempting to irrationally utilize it to define logical proof.
As in it wouldn’t be rational to utilize Einstein as an expert to prove something in religion.
However, you could still have a logical fallacy if you tried to appeal to authority/expert in their own field if utilizing their testimony is itself irrational.
For example any attempt to use personal testimony as evidence in the scientific method is an appeal to authority. For example It doesn’t matter what Einstein’s testimony is about physics, as personal testimony doesn’t fit within the scientific process. Utilizing someone’s personal testimony isn’t going to counter an observable phenomenon, or help anyone reproduce an experiment.
On the flip side, expert witness testimony can be used to bolster the body of evidence when it comes to the metaphysical. For example, it’s perfectly rational for a person who studies Nazi to list their experience when interpreting if something is a Nazi salute. As the only way to determine a Nazi salute from another movement is knowing the contextual history of the Nazi movement.
No, it is just about the authority being used as the proof. It can be someone who is an expert on the subject (or not). See the example used in the Wikipedia article:
One example of the use of the appeal to authority in science dates to 1923,[31] when leading American zoologist Theophilus Painter declared, based on poor data and conflicting observations he had made,[32][33] that humans had 24 pairs of chromosomes. From the 1920s until 1956,[34] scientists propagated this “fact” based on Painter’s authority,[35][36][33] despite subsequent counts totaling the correct number of 23.
Einstein is an expert at math and physics but him being an expert doesn’t make something true in itself and we shouldn’t trust the claims etc. just because of his status. But if he makes a claim, it for sure has more merit than claim from someone not as authoritative on the subject.
argument from authority, also known as an appeal to authority, is a reasoning technique that uses a person’s authority to support an argument, rather than their ideas. It can be a valid argument when the authority is an expert on the topic and their opinion is likely true. However, it can also be a logical fallacy if the authority is not qualified or the argument is unclear.
I’m not sure if you’re agreeing with me or disagreeing.
It can be a valid argument when the authority is an expert on the topic and their opinion is likely true.
I believe you are conflating authority with expertise. Authority means you have a position of influence over a body of people or knowledge. It doesn’t mean that you are automatically an expert or have real knowledge of the subject.
For something to be a logical fallacy it has to be irrational. Having someone quote their expertise in a subject doesn’t mean they are appealing to authority, they’re just aiding the body of evidence that supports their theory.
I think you are thinking about claims in the terms of the scientific process, which deals with physical sciences. When you should be interpreting this as a metaphysical debate or even a legal process, where the subject is based on interpretations stemming from social constructs.
Logical fallacies can be present in the physical sciences, but the scientific process is meant to minimize this. The problem with treating metaphysical things like interpreting political beliefs with the rigor of the scientific process is that it invalidates nuance and leads to things like Verificationism. Which is a theory of logical positivism that rejects all metaphysical beliefs including things like ethics.
I don’t know if you’ve read the Wikipedia article but their specific example is of someone who had authority in the field because of their expertise. It’s the expertise that gave them authority.
One example of the use of the appeal to authority in science dates to 1923,[31] when leading American zoologist Theophilus Painter declared, based on poor data and conflicting observations he had made,[32][33] that humans had 24 pairs of chromosomes. From the 1920s until 1956,[34] scientists propagated this “fact” based on Painter’s authority,[35][36][33] despite subsequent counts totaling the correct number of 23.[32][37] Even textbooks[32] with photos showing 23 pairs incorrectly declared the number to be 24[37] based on the authority of the then-consensus of 24 pairs.[38]
Authoritative person said it was so, people deferred to his expertise over findings arguing differently because they trusted his expertise on the subject.
For something to be a logical fallacy it has to be irrational. Having someone quote their expertise in a subject doesn’t mean they are appealing to authority, they’re just aiding the body of evidence that supports their theory.
It’s a fallacy when you use their expertise as the proof of something. Something is not true in the argumentative sense because someone is an expert, but of course in the real world if someone is an expert they know their shit better than most.
Authoritative person said it was so, people deferred to his expertise over findings arguing differently because they trusted his expertise on the subject.
Again, you are talking about physical sciences where the rigor of claims must first pass the scientific method. Personal testimony has no grounds within physical sciences, so the claim is irrational.
In physical sciences expert testimony does not add to the body of evidence, because testimony does not affect the observation of a physical phenomenon.
However, in metaphysical processes testimony is considered evidence, as it can shape the way people perceive the argument. In this case evidence isn’t absolute proof a physical phenomenon, it’s a bit of information that supports your assertion.
We are talking about a metaphysical problem where things like personal testimony are considered a rational argument.
Is it irrational for a court of law to call upon an expert witness? Or should all personal testimony be labeled as an irrational logical fallacy?
It’s a fallacy when you use their expertise as the proof of something. Something is not true in the argumentative sense because someone is an expert, but of course in the real world if someone is an expert they know their shit better than most.
No, it really isn’t. A fallacy is defined by a failure of rationality or reasoning. At what point is an expert on Nazis interpreting something as a Nazi salute a failure of reasoning?
Utilizing your interpretation, how would someone define a Nazi salute? Is there a scientific formula to determine if someone is a Nazi? Or would you have to study Nazis and their beliefs and use that information to make an educated determination?
In this case I would say you’d have to have an expert’s opinion. So stating you are an expert and giving your opinion is a perfectly logical and rational argument.
Logical fallacy: Fallacy fallacy
Look who learned the world fallacy today. Still you’re using it wrong
/s
